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Old April 14, 2017, 04:04 PM   #1
Cary Gunn
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New wave of foreign milsurps coming?

Howdy folks,

I originally posted the following entry on the tag-end of a four-month-old thread concerning the current usefulness of the Curio & Relic FFL 03 license

My thinking was that the utility of the "FFL 03" would soon increase greatly with the expected return to the U.S. market of foreign milsurp arms following President Trump's trashing of the Obama-era firearm import restrictions.

My expected resurgence of the foreign milsurp market hasn't materialized, thus leading to the questions posed in my original post. In the hope it will generate a greater response posted here as it's own thread topic, I herewith repeat my previous post which has languished without response for several days:


Gents,

I'm wondering if any of you has any "insider" knowledge of if and/or when the new Washington, D.C. administration will clear the books of the Obama-era firearm import restrictions and once again allow importation of military surplus firearms.

I'm no expert on the politics of the matter, but it's my understanding that President Trump need only "say the word" to strike down Obama's "executive orders" and the State Department's arbitrary ban on importation of military surplus firearms.

Anyone know if Trump has done so yet?

Surely, somebody out there has some reliable information on the matter.
If so, please share the knowledge.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --
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Old April 14, 2017, 04:18 PM   #2
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uh, Don't quote me I have no insider knowledge, I don't have C&R license.

But I think there was rumblings that like a million M1's was headed this way from ... um... The Philippines?

Meh.. Anyway Im sure you'll have plenty of chances to pick some up if anything is coming.. Don't think you'll need the inside scoop as anything imported will probably be in the 100's if not 1000's

Remember when mosins was like 50 bucks?
I still can't believe I never bought one.
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Old April 14, 2017, 11:22 PM   #3
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There are a few dregs around of M1 carbines and maybe M1 rifles that can be brought back by DCM (some are on the way) but the days of acres of warehouses full of milsurp rifles, handguns and MGs is over. The main reason is that the day of million-man armies is over (for now, let's hope for good!). And those guns that appear on the surplus market are full auto or selective fire (mainly AK-47 and variants) and not likely to be for sale on the civilian market.

Jim
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Old April 15, 2017, 05:49 AM   #4
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Hi.

The story is from a blogger. The rumor is that 86 thousand M1s sent to the Philippines under lend-lease will be coming back to the Army, and thus to the CMP.

It is not a fact at this time. If it does become fact I would urge people to 1) not assume that the rifles will be great, 2) not assume it will happen soon, and 3) not assume that they will last a long time even under CMP auction.

When the CMP announces it, I will believe it happened. In my opinion, until then it is a rumor from a guy that posts things online. The website he is associated with calls it 'breaking news'. We shall see.
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Old April 15, 2017, 06:25 AM   #5
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i bought several m-1,s and remington 03A2,s in 2004 from the cmp and i would be open to buying a few more rifles if they get them. eastbank.
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Old April 15, 2017, 06:32 AM   #6
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I have to wonder how many of those M1s will have to be cannibalized for parts due to damage caused by poor storage in a jungle climate. I hope many will be just fine, but I know absolutely nothing about how they were stored all these years.
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Old April 15, 2017, 11:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
I have to wonder how many of those M1s will have to be cannibalized for parts due to damage caused by poor storage in a jungle climate.
I'm sure there are some, but remember that we aren't talking about rifles that have been kept in mud huts by illiterate primitives here, we are talking about weapons that were used and cared for by the Philippine Army, etc.

The Philippine army has been operating on the US model since before WWII. General MacArthur actually retired from US service to take the post of commander of the Philippine army, and was recalled to US service with the start of WWII. After liberation from the Japanese, the reconstituted Philippine army went back to the US model & standards.

So, expect them to be about as well cared for as US forces would have done, in the same climate and resource conditions. Maybe not quite as well overall, but they certainly would have tried.

Some maybe worn out, certainly many are going to be a mixmaster of parts from different makers, but the US Army does/did the same thing. To the troops in the field, and the guys in the small arms shops, "parts is parts" and the goal is FUNCTION over all else.

So I'd say, if it IS true, and they do come back for civilian sale, you could get about any possible variation of use, misuse and wear, unless they have been inspected and repaired/refinished at some point before civilian sale.
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Old April 15, 2017, 12:42 PM   #8
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"...expected resurgence of the foreign milsurp market hasn't materialized..." The GCA of 1968 still applies and there are not the piles of assorted milsurps laying around any more.
"...President Trump need only "say the word"..." The Donald would have to make his own Edict. And for that to happen he'd have to care.
"...expect them to be about as well cared for as..." Been a very long time since The PI had anything to do with the U.S. However, their Army is equipped with American kit. Mind you so are the assorted terrs running around over there. Picture about half way down. http://www.afp.mil.ph/
Everything about the PI M1's is rumour and guesses. Just like the Korean stuff, who wanted to sell the Rifles and Carbines, not return.
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Old April 15, 2017, 01:18 PM   #9
carguychris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cary Gunn
My thinking was that the utility of the "FFL 03" would soon increase greatly with the expected return to the U.S. market of foreign milsurp arms following President Trump's trashing of the Obama-era firearm import restrictions.
The Obama-era restrictions are trivial compared to the GHWB and Clinton import bans on firearms from China and the former USSR. Realistically, the Obama restrictions only shut off M1 Garands from the ROK and new-made Saigas. The Bush and Clinton restrictions closed the SVT and Dragunov pipelines and restricted SKS availability to Eastern Europe.

That said, given that the POTUS ran on a platform of restricting trade with China, that he's been fighting accusations that he's a Russian puppet, and that our diplomatic relations with the Russians are going downhill, I wouldn't count on these restrictions being revisited anytime soon.
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Last edited by carguychris; April 15, 2017 at 01:20 PM. Reason: Minor reword
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Old April 16, 2017, 01:00 PM   #10
Cary Gunn
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Howdy "Carguychris,"

The Obama administration, in the last two years of it's "reign," struck numerous anti-gun blows, perhaps the most onerous being the establishment of the State Department as the controlling agency dealing with milsurp imports.

Previously, the BATF was the import gate-keeper, so-to-speak, and was more or less bound by laws passed by the legislature. Obama overturned that arrangement by "executive decree," and established the State Department as gate-keeper, guided by the terms of International Arms Trade Treaty that the Obama-Hillary-United Nations gang has been trying shove down the collective American throat.

I'll never swallow that vile anti-gun treaty, and neither will the U.S. Senate, so the fact that Obama decided base his firearm import policy on it is immaterial now that he has been dethroned. The Arms Trade Treaty never was -- and hopefully never will be -- made legally binding in the U.S.

And, there were still oodles of foreign milsurp firearms available for import just prior to Obama's import restrictions, as evidenced by the previous flood of Nagant revolvers, Polish P-64's, CZ 70's and 82's, Makarovs from many former Warsaw Pact nations, Tokarev's , etc., etc., ect. In "long guns" there were, and still are, warehouses full in Europe (scads of Mosins, and lesser smatterings of Austrian/Hungarian Model 95 Mannlicher's, Swiss Rubins, etc.).

But the warehoused milsurps in Europe were suddenly shut off to U.S. citizens by the Obama-inspired anti-import directives launched a few years ago.

I don't look to Trump to lift import restrictions on China, nor do I necessarily believe he should, but there are lots of interesting milsurps still languishing in Europe, outside of Russia.

I'm just wondering when, or if, they'll ever be made available to us "dangerous crackpots" in the U.S. milsurp/curio & relic market.

Happy trails,

-- Cary Gunn --

Last edited by Cary Gunn; April 16, 2017 at 01:10 PM.
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Old April 17, 2017, 07:49 PM   #11
James K
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"In "long guns" there were, and still are, warehouses full in Europe (scads of Mosins, and lesser smatterings of Austrian/Hungarian Model 95 Mannlicher's, Swiss Rubins, etc.)."

Just curious as to the source of that info and/or the location of all those warehouses full of guns that will be sold on the civilian market.

Jim
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Old April 19, 2017, 09:31 PM   #12
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I feel like there may be a surge of cheap AK's from some war awhile back since so many were made, but I'm not too sure. Just glad I was able to get my hands on a 91/30.
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Old April 21, 2017, 02:12 AM   #13
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Quote:
I feel like there may be a surge of cheap AK's from some war awhile back since so many were made, but I'm not too sure.
Where there a ton of Semi auto AKs built for a war?

All Aks built for war have the ability for FA they wont be imported to the US.
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Old April 21, 2017, 11:18 AM   #14
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I would add that even if there still ARE warehouses full of military surplus guns and ammo that COULD be legally imported and sold in the US, its not happening like it was, and may end entirely, due to EUROPEAN laws and rules.

The UN's desire to end trade in small arms means that nations with surplus stocks of arms & ammo are often destroying them, rather than selling them.

There are people in power who don't want arms (of any kind) sold to anyone, anywhere, ever. And they have considerable influence outside the US, and unfortunately, some influence inside as well.

There may be lots of them still out there, but they won't get here, because they are, or were "weapons of war" and the political leaders of other nations won't allow their sale anymore.

And don't even think about any military arm that is full auto, being on our legal markets, cheap or fantastically expensive. Not going to happen with current laws, both US and International.
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Old April 21, 2017, 04:44 PM   #15
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Odd you should bring that up. I was just told that by someone else that collects military rifles. A couple of us were trying to figure out where all the French issue MAS 49's got to, so we did the math. We came up with a (Very reserved) number of about 50,000 rifles that were unaccounted for. This involved collectors from the US, Canada, France, Australia, and a few other European countries other than France. The MAS 49 is no longer in the french inventory. We came to the conclusion that they were destroyed because of that UN deal.
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Old April 21, 2017, 10:24 PM   #16
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Dang. I like the MAS 49.
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Old April 22, 2017, 08:57 AM   #17
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I wasn't familiar with the mas49, so I googled it.
Wiki is claiming only 20k of them was made.. but a lot more of a later variant the 49/56 was produced (275k)
So is that the variant you're talking about or is wiki wrong?


It also goes on to say Century Arms imported and converted 49/56's to 7.62nato.
So maybe that's your missing rifles?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAS-49_rifle
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Old April 22, 2017, 12:13 PM   #18
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We have a collector from France that was in the French Army and is pretty good with this stuff. He claims about 80,000 total production, including the Syrian contract model. WIKI probably got it's information from the same book everyone else did. It is hard to say, the French Army is never too open about this stuff. Even so, subtract 6,000(Syrian) rifles. That leaves 14,00 French contract guns. That hardly seem right either. These guns saw a lot of use in Southeast Asia and the mid east. The number seems way too small. There were 300 imported by Centry into the US. I have never seen an MAS 49 converted to .308. Some were brought back from Vietnam, but it is rare to see one. Talk to the Canadians and they are rare up there. The French deactivated some and sold them as wall hangers in France. They are rare on a french rifle range. We are thinking that the biggest supply of MAS 49 French contract rifles that are still operable are here in the US. 300 rifles.
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Old April 22, 2017, 03:19 PM   #19
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I have heard that Trump is undoing many of Obama's restrictions on gun importation but I have no specific knowledge of what may or may not be coming. Remember that it takes time to make these deals and meet government regulations even with a gun friendly administration. May be a couple years before large numbers of surplus guns start showing up.
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Old April 22, 2017, 08:14 PM   #20
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JoeSixpack--

I just thought of an easy way to check the numbers on MAS 49 production. The earliest serial# I have is 12,xxx and the highest is 79,xxx. The 79,xxx is very high and probably one of the last ones off the line. It came from Vietnam and has no rebuild stamps. The barrel markings indicate it was a very late production rifle. The Syrian contract rifles appear to have just been inserted into the serialization without a start or stop point. They fall between 32,000-40,000.
A quick check with other collectors shows serial numbers on MAS 49 rifles from 8xx up into 75xxx with numbers scattered all the way through. I have the book PROUD PROMISE and it does state in there that 20,000 were produced. It is a good book, but there are a few mistakes here and there. Probably where Wiki got their info.
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Old April 22, 2017, 08:45 PM   #21
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Rumor has it that the South Korean rifles and carbines may be allowed back in, but it's just a rumor and the left is not going to give in without a fight.
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Old April 22, 2017, 09:23 PM   #22
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Just for fun, let's look at some of the armed forces figures for WWII. These are approximate, include only the major nations (Chinese figures are not reliable) and of course not every member of a nation's armed forces carried a rifle or other small arm. Still...

U.S. 12,209,000
USSR 33,000,000
UK 3,000,000
Germany 18,200,000
Japan 5,500,000

Total 71,700,000

That folks, is a whole lot of (mostly) men and a lot of small arms. Plus police, para-military (like the Gestapo) are not included, although they were armed.

We know that millions of those arms were destroyed in combat, millions more scrapped by their captors, millions more dispersed around the world to small nations or political "fighters" of various kinds, mostly not under any kind of government control.

Jim
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Old April 22, 2017, 10:19 PM   #23
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is that number of guns or number of men?

I heard stories of Russian conscripts going into battle.. only the first couple lines would be armed.. men behind them would follow along and pick up the rifle if the man in front died.
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Old April 23, 2017, 10:03 AM   #24
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Quote:
I heard stories of Russian conscripts going into battle.. only the first couple lines would be armed.. men behind them would follow along and pick up the rifle if the man in front died
That's from the movie Enemy at the Gates it didn't happen.
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Old April 23, 2017, 10:50 AM   #25
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Just an additional thought on the French MAS49 or variants - they may no longer be active duty combat rifles, but I have definitely seen a few being carried by airport patrols. Could a certain number be tucked away in various CRS and Gendarmerie depots?

I'm in and out of Orly on a weekly basis, and the variety of arms carried by the variety of police/army patrols is interesting. While they dislike it if you do too many double-takes for obvious reasons, it is interesting to see. Yesterday a CRS patrol was carrying an AC556 with a nicely checkered stock. Hats of too them, I always try to say thanks.
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