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Old April 6, 2017, 12:48 PM   #1
rep1954
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Can I sbr a handgun?

As the title reads, can I sbr a handgun or do I need a Rifle?
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Old April 6, 2017, 12:50 PM   #2
dallasb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rep1954 View Post
As the title reads, can I sbr a handgun or do I need a Rifle?


Absolutely you can SBR a pistol. A lot of people start with say an AR pistol, fill out the paperwork, and play with it until the ATF approves the stamp. After that just add a stock. Keep in mind that once a rifle always a rifle, it can never be considered a handgun.


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Old April 6, 2017, 02:44 PM   #3
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I made a long barreled pistol from a High Standard 22 auto. I never attached a stock but according to the ATF, as long as the shoulder stock is attached to the barrel I could have it as either a rifle or a pistol. The trick is that the stock can not be made so it can be used with the short pistol barrel. The barrel is 22" long.
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Old April 6, 2017, 03:36 PM   #4
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Yep,

My 10/22 SBR is based on a Charger (pistol) receiver...
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Old April 7, 2017, 11:39 AM   #5
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The trick is that the stock can not be made so it can be used with the short pistol barrel. The barrel is 22" long.
Not to go off the topic, but I do not believe this part is true.

Otherwise everybody who owned an AR that went from pistol to rifle would be illegal because the stock can be attached with the short barrel.

You cannot attach the stock with the short barrel and you can't have any parts that don't have a legal use, but there's nowhere that says that the stock has to somehow not be able to attach to the short barrel.

Someone please share if I'm wrong.
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Old April 7, 2017, 11:47 AM   #6
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Dakota,
You are right, there was a typo. It should have read that the stock CAN'T be used with the pistol barrel.
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Old April 7, 2017, 03:42 PM   #7
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There is no requirement that the stock can't be capable of physically attaching to the gun when the pistol barrel is installed.

Only that all parts are installed in a legal order and have a legal use. You can't have a stock laying around if you don't have a rifle barrel, but you can have a pistol, and a stock that can attach to the pistol, as long as you also have a rifle barrel and you only attach the stock after attaching the rifle barrel.
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Old April 7, 2017, 04:53 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dallasb
Keep in mind that once a rifle always a rifle, it can never be considered a handgun.
This is a commonly parroted misconception. As explained in this letter from the ATF, my added explanation in [brackets].
Quote:
...a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4) [i.e. an NFA firearm], is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).
IOW you CAN lawfully take apart a pistol, assemble it into a non-NFA rifle (shoulder stock, barrel or barrels 16" or longer, OAL 26" or longer), take it back apart, and reassemble it as a pistol again... IF the firearm started out as a pistol.

This is why items like the Beretta Neos Carbine Kit and Mechtech Glock CCU can be sold without a tax stamp.

Here is what you CANNOT do without invoking the NFA.
  • Take apart a pistol and assemble it into an SBR (shoulder stock, barrel or barrels less than 16", OAL less than 26"). This includes creative misuse of the pile of parts discussed above.
  • Take apart a firearm that started out as a rifle and assemble it into an SBR. I'm making this obvious assertion to point out that this includes weapons offered in both rifle and pistol configurations (e.g. Ruger 10/22); if you want a "two-in-one" with no tax stamp, you should start with the pistol.
  • Take apart a firearm that started out as a rifle and assemble it into pistol, again with creative misuse of that pile of parts. This includes a weapon purchased as a virgin stripped receiver or barreled action and FIRST assembled into a rifle. Again, if you want a "two-in-one," start with the pistol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShootistPRS
The trick is that the stock can not be made so it can be used with the short pistol barrel. The barrel is 22" long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota.potts
Not to go off the topic, but I do not believe this part is true... Otherwise everybody who owned an AR that went from pistol to rifle would be illegal because the stock can be attached with the short barrel... You cannot attach the stock with the short barrel and you can't have any parts that don't have a legal use.
I'm with Dakota on this one. AFAIK certain stocks are made in this manner for CYA reasons by the manufacturer, and not because of any cut-and-dried legal or regulatory requirement.

As another case in point, the aforementioned Beretta Neos Carbine Kit can be readily assembled into an SBR configuration. The same goes for similar kits from Thompson/Center. The kits themselves are perfectly legal to own; it's just not legal to use them in a certain way. Kinda like the Anarchist's Cookbook or various Al-Qaeda and Daesh training manuals.

Disclaimer #1: I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV. This is not legal advice. Caveat emptor and YMMV.
Disclaimer #2: If you are reading an archived version of this post long after it was written, be aware that ATF interpretations are notorious for sudden and drastic changes. I strongly advise searching for more up-to-date guidance.
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Old April 8, 2017, 05:36 PM   #9
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That was the instruction I got fro the ATF when I inquired about having a conversion kit for my 22 pistol.

You might be able to get away with having the stock connect to the pistol frame but that is not what I was told.

On a similar note: the Contender is sold as a pistol frame and action regardless of the configuration it is made into. You can freely change barrels and stocks as long as it is not configured with a pistol barrel and a shoulder stock at the same time. (determined in hearings between the ATF and Thompson Center)
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Old April 11, 2017, 10:41 PM   #10
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As a kid I had a chance to shoot a Single action revolver with a shoulder stock. I am pretty sure it was an SBR. From memorie I would say it had a 8 inch barrel.
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Old April 14, 2017, 03:48 PM   #11
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You absolutely can SBR a pistol.. as Dallassb said it's common to take a pistol configuration, SBR it and mount a stock.. the Draco pistols, Kel-Tec PLR16, HK mp5(k) pistols, etc.. they startout with short barrels, people SBR them and then add the stock.. no problemo.


for non NFA, I understand the law exactly as carguychris said.
If it's a rifle it stays a rifle, you'll need SBR to shorten in.

guns that start out as pistols can be converted to rifle configurations and then back again into pistols.. although this in no way allows you to add a stock to a short barrel (SBR)

But you can swap a longer barrel then add the stock and it's in rifle config, no problem, then reverse that to go back to pistol.. again this is only for combo guns and guns that are sold as pistols.. anything sold as a rifle must stay a rifle.

Im actually in the middle of dealing with this my self on a AR15 build.. I know I should build it out as a pistol first before configuring as a rifle but I have no idea how to document (without a doubt) as a pistol "1st" build.

Im building from stripped lowers which aren't sold as rifle or pistol on the dealer forms so it's on me to somehow document the 1st build.


@Deja vu
Certain old C&R (curio & relic) firearms are exempted.
First thing that pops into my mind is the old c96 broom handle.
It was originally made with a shoulder stock, the gun could actually fit inside the stock for storage.

Unless something has changed THOSE CAN be fitted with a stock (I think stock reproductions of the same design are also allowed but don't quote me) and are legit legal without a tax stamp.

I know a lot of times the stocks are missing, cracked, damaged on the c96's
They were made of wood iirc
Like to have one of the Red 9's (9mm chambering)

Last edited by JoeSixpack; April 14, 2017 at 03:54 PM.
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Old April 14, 2017, 06:21 PM   #12
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I was thinking the new Ruger MKIV looks like the perfect 22lr to build up a SBR on now that they have redesigned the mainspring housing and it doesn't take up the back strap anymore. A nice skeleton stock and it could be a sweet little package.
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Old April 14, 2017, 08:36 PM   #13
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Quote:
JoeSixpack ......... I know I should build it out as a pistol first before configuring as a rifle but I have no idea how to document (without a doubt) as a pistol "1st" build.

Im building from stripped lowers which aren't sold as rifle or pistol on the dealer forms so it's on me to somehow document the 1st build.
Simple.....assemble the gun, but don't put the shoulder stock on. As long as the AR can function and meets the definition of "pistol" in Federal law.

There is no requirement to document that it was a pistol first. But if it makes you sleep better.....video the assembly of the firearm.
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Old April 15, 2017, 09:56 AM   #14
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I have seen that some folks use their Ruger Chargers in a modified thumb hole rifle stock. The fore end is modified accordingly to the barrel length and the stock is shortened just to leave enough length for a cheek weld. When I shoot my AR pistols I use a 3 point contact (support hand, grip and trigger hand, and a cheek weld) and do very well with it. In fact quite well for no shoulder contact sitting at a bench. At what point would adding such a device to a pistol be considered a rifle stock?

Last edited by rep1954; April 15, 2017 at 10:22 AM.
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Old April 15, 2017, 01:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rep1954
At what point would adding [a shortened shoulder stock] to a pistol be considered a rifle stock?
AFAIK there is no definitive answer.
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Old April 17, 2017, 07:07 PM   #16
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Huh?
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Old April 17, 2017, 09:24 PM   #17
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"Huh? "
AS FAR AS I KNOW
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Old April 18, 2017, 02:40 AM   #18
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ATFE Technical Branch gave approval to a shortened-butt stock for the 10/22 (Charger) that had only about 2-3 inches of stock act of the pistol grip, but I think you'd have to send them the stock or a scale drawing to get their opinion on a specific model. That's how the 10/22 Charger stock got approved.
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Old April 18, 2017, 09:13 AM   #19
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rep1954 I have seen that some folks use their Ruger Chargers in a modified thumb hole rifle stock. The fore end is modified accordingly to the barrel length and the stock is shortened just to leave enough length for a cheek weld. When I shoot my AR pistols I use a 3 point contact (support hand, grip and trigger hand, and a cheek weld) and do very well with it. In fact quite well for no shoulder contact sitting at a bench. At what point would adding such a device to a pistol be considered a rifle stock?
At the point where ATF says...."that's a shoulder stock".

I had a local police officer bring an AR "pistol" in to have me ship out. I refused because he had built his own version of a Sig Arm brace and attached it. While the Sig brace has a determination letter, that doesn't mean lookalikes are covered as well.

Anyone who thinks they are outwitting ATF better be prepared for the consequences. While you may eventually beat the rap....you never beat the ride. Ask yourself which is cheaper......paying a $200 tax stamp for an SBR or $10-20,000 for your attorneys fees.
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Old April 19, 2017, 08:37 AM   #20
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Dogtown and 9x19, thanks for pinch-hitting for me during my brief absence.

"There is no definitive answer" is the short answer.

The longer answer is that the ATF has only given approval to specific types of Stock-Like Pistol Thingy (which I'll call SLPT for short ). As far as I know, they have NOT issued any dimensional guidance regarding where the magic line is drawn between an SLPT and a shoulder stock requiring a tax stamp.

If you choose to roll your own SLPT without prior ATF approval—even if it's a close copy of an approved type—you're in uncharted territory and you must be prepared to suffer the consequences (+1 Dogtown).
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Old April 21, 2017, 02:15 PM   #21
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Okay, ... huh?
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