KAR 98K Authenticity check

Comrade_Penguin · May 5, 2020, 03:24 PM

I have a question about the authenticity of a KAR98K that I am looking at buying and have done some research that only really yielded more questions than answers. I couldn't figure out how to attach the images to the post since I was getting a token error, but I uploaded them to my website for people to view in hopes that someone can shine some light on it for me. Here is the link:
https://lordgunner.net/files

There are four files tilted KAR98K jpeg's.

From what I have seen when there is a designation beneath the serial number, like the S on the one in the pictures, that S should be everywhere, but it is not. The fonts don't seem to match, which from what I read is a big sign that it might not authentic.

Does anyone have any input on this for me?

**44 AMP** · May 5, 2020, 11:55 PM

The first thing that needs establishing is, what do You mean and expect when you say "authentic"???

The next point is, is there any history/provenance connected to the rifle? Meaning, is it claimed to be a certain specific rifle made XXXX, served/used xxx and xxx, etc., or is it just "for sale, Mauser 98k 8mm

It looks like a 98k. It has a 1938 date. It has the correct code for "made under military contract", it has the WaA Pruf eagle stamps. Matching #s on the bolt, action and barrel. Also has other stamps I'm not aware of the exact meaning (am not an expert, don't claim to be, my advice is worth what you pay for it..

)

I certainly has all the features and looks of a WWII era Kar 98k. In that regard, it seems "authentic".

I suppose it could be a hand made gun done by Pathan tribesmen, using steel and wood from torn up railroad tracks, slavishly copying an original down to the proof marks, such guns have been "discovered", but I'd say the odds are against that.

Understand that there are a HUGE number of possible variations, of both parts and markings, that are still fully "authentic" even if they differ from descriptions in standard reference works.

The gun might have been reworked (maybe even more than once) DURING WWII. This is also "authentic" though it can create a rifle much different in detail than it was when it left the maker's factory.

Very clearly no one has worked on the rifle since the stock was damaged. Are you asking if the damage is "authentic"?? Happened in WWII? Is there a claim that it did, and that makes the rifle something special and worth $$$

or did a shipping crate fall on it in 1956?? or something else?

Check for an importer's name & address. If it has one, then it came into the US after 1968. If not, it could be a GI bringback (with papers = $$, without = 0) or one of the many thousands imported for commercial sale before the 1968 requirement to be marked with importer's name & address...

A great many things are possible. What is it you think you are looking for??

Keep in mind the standard advice about milsurp guns, "You buy the gun, NOT the story".

Unless there is verified authentic paperwork with the gun, no matter what the story is, its just a story. Don't pay money for a story.

Comrade_Penguin · May 6, 2020, 02:07 AM

Thanks for the insight, when I ask about it being authentic, just does it seem like it's from the war, or was it made much more recently. There isn't a story, and I didn't talk to the gun store much about it, just read the tag and it says kar98k by Mauser. I just didn't want to buy a faked gun where it was made much more recently. There isn't a story around it, that I know of.

MC 1911 · May 6, 2020, 06:57 AM

Production ended in 1945 I believe & none have been made recently that I know of.

**44 AMP** · May 6, 2020, 07:47 AM

There have been no Kar 98ks made since the end of Nazi Germany (1945).

And, there aren't going to be any, unless Mauser decides to reproduce them, or authorizes someone else too. And then there is the question of the tooling,
does it even still exist??

Mauser produced Lugers again, in the 70s, but they made the Swiss pattern Luger, with is not the P.08, the grip is different, and its not what most people who "always wanted a Luger" wanted, and it didn't stay in production.

The reason they didn't make the P.08 is because they no longer had to tooling. The Swiss still had their tooling in storage, and Mauser either "borrowed" or bought it, I don't know which.

There have are other Mauser pattern bolt actions produced since the end of WWII such a the Yugoslavian M 48. At a glance they look like 98ks but they are different rifles. The action length is not exactly the same, and major parts do not interchange.

People have faked markings on Lugers to defraud, Lugers have some very rare valuable variants that only differ due to the markings on them. Kar 98ks haven't been valuable until just recently, there are still lots of them out there, and its rather unlikely you'd find a "forgery" as a bashed up example in a local gun shop.

There is one kind of "fakery" that you may find, and that is the "force match". This has been done to get guns with "all matching numbers". It's possible because only the last 2 digits are repeated on the smaller parts. SO, a part, or maybe two mismatched on rifle# 649941 might get replaced with the part from rifle # 453441, resulting in the first rifle now having "all matching numbers". IF done with the intent of claiming higher values because the all matching # rifle is "original" that's fraud.

Tidewater_Kid · May 6, 2020, 12:19 PM

With the huge chunk out of the stock and the price on the drop tag, it would be a hard pass for me. It looks like a good example, but you can find better for less money.

Jim Watson · May 6, 2020, 01:10 PM

I am not a student of foreign army surplus, but that one looks good except for the busted stock, nice blue job from when they were winning.

Quote:

Mauser produced Lugers again, in the 70s, but they made the Swiss pattern Luger, with is not the P.08, the grip is different,

Actually they did get around to making 1906 and P08 lookalikes with the "proper" lobed frontstrap. in 1986 I greatly admired an '08 Match model with adjustable sight and bull barrel but my job was at risk and I couldn't justify it.
A couple of years ago I looked hard at a 1906 pattern Mauser Parabellum but the turnoff was the very stiff grip safety. If it had been cheaper, I might have considered a grip safety delete and new grips.

Quote:

Lugers have some very rare valuable variants that only differ due to the markings on them.

As one wag said, from 1900 til 1945 they made over a million Lugers. And if you ask a Luger collector, each and every one is a separate and distinct model.

May 5, 2020, 03:24 PM	#1
Comrade_Penguin Junior Member Join Date: May 5, 2020 Posts: 2	KAR 98K Authenticity check I have a question about the authenticity of a KAR98K that I am looking at buying and have done some research that only really yielded more questions than answers. I couldn't figure out how to attach the images to the post since I was getting a token error, but I uploaded them to my website for people to view in hopes that someone can shine some light on it for me. Here is the link: https://lordgunner.net/files There are four files tilted KAR98K jpeg's. From what I have seen when there is a designation beneath the serial number, like the S on the one in the pictures, that S should be everywhere, but it is not. The fonts don't seem to match, which from what I read is a big sign that it might not authentic. Does anyone have any input on this for me?

May 5, 2020, 11:55 PM	#2
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,817	The first thing that needs establishing is, what do You mean and expect when you say "authentic"??? The next point is, is there any history/provenance connected to the rifle? Meaning, is it claimed to be a certain specific rifle made XXXX, served/used xxx and xxx, etc., or is it just "for sale, Mauser 98k 8mm It looks like a 98k. It has a 1938 date. It has the correct code for "made under military contract", it has the WaA Pruf eagle stamps. Matching #s on the bolt, action and barrel. Also has other stamps I'm not aware of the exact meaning (am not an expert, don't claim to be, my advice is worth what you pay for it..) I certainly has all the features and looks of a WWII era Kar 98k. In that regard, it seems "authentic". I suppose it could be a hand made gun done by Pathan tribesmen, using steel and wood from torn up railroad tracks, slavishly copying an original down to the proof marks, such guns have been "discovered", but I'd say the odds are against that. Understand that there are a HUGE number of possible variations, of both parts and markings, that are still fully "authentic" even if they differ from descriptions in standard reference works. The gun might have been reworked (maybe even more than once) DURING WWII. This is also "authentic" though it can create a rifle much different in detail than it was when it left the maker's factory. Very clearly no one has worked on the rifle since the stock was damaged. Are you asking if the damage is "authentic"?? Happened in WWII? Is there a claim that it did, and that makes the rifle something special and worth $$$ or did a shipping crate fall on it in 1956?? or something else? Check for an importer's name & address. If it has one, then it came into the US after 1968. If not, it could be a GI bringback (with papers = $$, without = 0) or one of the many thousands imported for commercial sale before the 1968 requirement to be marked with importer's name & address... A great many things are possible. What is it you think you are looking for?? Keep in mind the standard advice about milsurp guns, "You buy the gun, NOT the story". Unless there is verified authentic paperwork with the gun, no matter what the story is, its just a story. Don't pay money for a story. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 6, 2020, 07:47 AM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,817	There have been no Kar 98ks made since the end of Nazi Germany (1945). And, there aren't going to be any, unless Mauser decides to reproduce them, or authorizes someone else too. And then there is the question of the tooling, does it even still exist?? Mauser produced Lugers again, in the 70s, but they made the Swiss pattern Luger, with is not the P.08, the grip is different, and its not what most people who "always wanted a Luger" wanted, and it didn't stay in production. The reason they didn't make the P.08 is because they no longer had to tooling. The Swiss still had their tooling in storage, and Mauser either "borrowed" or bought it, I don't know which. There have are other Mauser pattern bolt actions produced since the end of WWII such a the Yugoslavian M 48. At a glance they look like 98ks but they are different rifles. The action length is not exactly the same, and major parts do not interchange. People have faked markings on Lugers to defraud, Lugers have some very rare valuable variants that only differ due to the markings on them. Kar 98ks haven't been valuable until just recently, there are still lots of them out there, and its rather unlikely you'd find a "forgery" as a bashed up example in a local gun shop. There is one kind of "fakery" that you may find, and that is the "force match". This has been done to get guns with "all matching numbers". It's possible because only the last 2 digits are repeated on the smaller parts. SO, a part, or maybe two mismatched on rifle# 649941 might get replaced with the part from rifle # 453441, resulting in the first rifle now having "all matching numbers". IF done with the intent of claiming higher values because the all matching # rifle is "original" that's fraud. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 6, 2020, 02:07 AM	#3
Comrade_Penguin Junior Member Join Date: May 5, 2020 Posts: 2	Thanks for the insight, when I ask about it being authentic, just does it seem like it's from the war, or was it made much more recently. There isn't a story, and I didn't talk to the gun store much about it, just read the tag and it says kar98k by Mauser. I just didn't want to buy a faked gun where it was made much more recently. There isn't a story around it, that I know of.

May 6, 2020, 06:57 AM	#4
MC 1911 Senior Member Join Date: February 19, 2011 Location: Virginia Posts: 372	Production ended in 1945 I believe & none have been made recently that I know of.

May 6, 2020, 12:19 PM	#6
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	With the huge chunk out of the stock and the price on the drop tag, it would be a hard pass for me. It looks like a good example, but you can find better for less money.