FL resize -06 issue

[BoogieMan]

I am using a lee FL resizing die and getting odd rings around the mouth. I have set the die to stop against the shell plate per Lee instruction. I thought that the mandrel may be going past the mouth so I raised it several times with no apparent change. 2 cases on left are FC the 2 right are RP


Second question is OAL is short. I expected to have to trim. Lee lists the COAL as 2.494". My brass (headstamp FC & RP, 1 fire) is averaging around 2.485 prior to size and 2.487-2.495 after sizing. I plan to run everything through the trimmer after sizing. What would a min length be?
Other lengths seem to be off also. Base to minor neck od is running 2.125ish should be 2.109
Base to the major od shoulder is running 1.945-1.955
I dont have a cartridge headspace gage. Seeing as I have no control over this do I need one?

[dahermit]

Question #1, The only "strange rings" I see are on the two cases on the right, (RP's?). They appear to me to be the left-over marks from factory ammo that had been crimped by the factory.

Question #2, In one of my Lyman loading manuals, Lyman calls for a trim-to- length of 2.484. After sizing, I would trim all of my cases to that length.

Question #3., the one you did not ask: Start hand loading with quality cases. Do not mix cases of different brands, do not use range brass (you do not know how many times any one case has been shot), start with a quantity of new cases and fire them in your gun, or buy a quantity of factory ammo (of one brand) and fire it in your gun as your source for cases.

[Snyper]

You might try cleaning the inside of the die to make sure there's no lube build -up

[BoogieMan]

@daharmet- The cases are fired from my gun or my buddies gun. New production ammo. But, we often let them fly (pump gun) and hit the ground. So then we pickup all the cases at the end of the day and inevitably a few mixed in. I have hornady,federal, and remingtons. I did a little closer inspection and have to agree that the rings are actually in the brass prior to sizing. So I guess that its from the factory crimp.
Should I be trimming before I size or only after?
What is the minimum case oal? I feel pretty confident that I can trim them all to the 4.485 and have them clean up.
I plan to clean after sizing then sort by head stamp. All these will live out there life in the same Rem 700, but cases will likely continue to come as once fired from either my 7600 or my buddies RugAmer. I will make sure im not grabbing other range brass.
@Snyper- I think I will pull the die and clean it up to make sure there isnt any burrs or crud left from the factory. They are brand new dies.

[Snyper]

Should I be trimming before I size or only after?

I always do it after

[dahermit]

Should I be trimming before I size or only after?
What is the minimum case oal?

After, "trim-to-length" is the minimum.

[hartcreek]

"Question #3., the one you did not ask: Start hand loading with quality cases. Do not mix cases of different brands, do not use range brass (you do not know how many times any one case has been shot), start with a quantity of new cases and fire them in your gun, or buy a quantity of factory ammo (of one brand) and fire it in your gun as your source for cases."

The is no reason for such as long as you seperate your cases and work up your loads using the heaviest cases that have the least case volume.

I see nothng wrong with those cases. There is no reason to be so OCD that you have to worry about how many times a case has been reloaded. When a case fail it fails if you load to near maximum like I do the worst case is that you might have a case head seperation........ a ten dollar broken case extractor in you pocket takes care of that problem and a jointed cleaning rod in your pack will allow you to remove a stuck case.

I have a few hundred cases from before WWII and they are gradually reaching their limit NBD.

[hooligan1]

I pick up range brass every chance I get, and I dont worry bout headstamps so much. I inspect the once-fired range brass for excessive pressure, bad headspace, splits, cracks, etc.
I also measure headspace and if it is unusually long, I search the rest of those cases out and keep an eye on them through the process of resizing, trimming, annealing, and prep, and thats the only time I seperate headstamps, mostly...
Sometimes when I load hunting ammo, mixed headstamps dont mean a lot in the scheme of things, however I do trim my 30-06 brass to 2.484 after first resizing.

I don't shoot competition, and right now as we write, I dont have a longer range to test my handloads at longer ranges than 100 yds, this spring I plan on joining a range that extends to 1000 yds, and see how major a difference mixing headstamped cases....
With other rifles I own, I do seperate headstamps so I can accurately test handloads, by my Remington 700, 1-10", 24" barrel doesnt really seem to care as long as I keepfeeding that beast..

[F. Guffey]

I dont have a cartridge headspace gage. Seeing as I have no control over this do I need one?

I do not have a cartridge head space gage because SAAMI says the cartridge does not have head space. SAAMI list a length for the cartridge from the datum/shoulder to the head of the case.

And the answer is yes if the question is "do you have to purchase one". But it is not necessary, anyone that can drill a straight hole and has had my lecture on reading datums and making datum based tools knows purchasing is an option.

F. Guffey

[Bart B.]

Boogieman, you'll need a gauge to measure case headspace if you want long case life and best accuracy. A very good, inexpensive one is explained in post #35 in the following link:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/show...=544432&page=2

If your rifle has a chamber on the big end of specs and you set the die in the press per instructions (typically touching the shellholder then screwing down another quarter turn), more often than not, the fired cases will be resized too much. Case life will be short and accuracy will suffer. After a few firings on a case, head separation will start from the case brass stretching over and over again about 2/10ths inch forward of the case head.

Setting the fired case shoulder back about .002" is perfect, safe, and easy to do. Adjust the die in the press so that happens. Turning the die about 1/10th inch about its threaded circumference changes its position about .002" in height. When properly set for your rifle chamber, the die will probably not touch the shellholder at all when the ram is at the top of its stroke.

[steve4102]

1) clean your cases before you run them through the FL sizing die.

2) as already pointed out the rings at the case "Mouth" are remnants of a Factory Crimp, ignore them.

3)

I have set the die to stop against the shell plate per Lee instruction

This is NOT how lee instructs to set up their FL rifle dies.

This is from their instruction sheet.

[B]Full Length Sizer[/B]
COMPLETE INSTRUCTIONS FOR LEE RIFLE DIE SETS
Screw the full length sizer in until it touches the shell holder.
Then lower the ram and screw the die in 1/4 to 1/3 turn more.

http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/RM3508.pdf

Stopping at the shell plate like you did may cause your cases to grow from head-to-shoulder and become difficult to chamber.

[F. Guffey]

Setting the fired case shoulder back about .002" is perfect, safe, and easy to do. Adjust the die in the press so that happens. Turning the die about 1/10th inch about its threaded circumference changes its position about .002" in height. When properly set for your rifle chamber, the die will probably not touch the shellholder at all when the ram is at the top of its stroke.

1/10th of an inch is .100", one turn of the die is 1/14 or .071", seems to me 1/10th of a turn would be .007".

Setting the fired case shoulder back about .002" is perfect, safe, and easy to do.

If it was as easy to do as Bart B. claims why is it necessary to talk about it every day and on every reloading forum. I know the length of the chamber before I size a case for the chamber, I though all reloaders could.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

What would a min length be?
Other lengths seem to be off also. Base to minor neck od is running 2.125ish should be 2.109
Base to the major od shoulder is running 1.945-1.955

Head space gages have changed, I am one of the few that can make gages to measure the length of a case from the shoulder/neck juncture to the head of the case and from the case body/shoulder juncture to the head of the case, AND! from the datum to the head of the case. Question: Once you have this information what are you going to do with it?

You have artifacts on you cases, some caused by trimming and others caused by sizing. I have Lee factory crimp dies, I do not use them but I have them JIC. I do not like the artifact they leave on the mouth of the case.

F. Guffey

[T. O'Heir]

"...cartridge headspace gauge..." Cartridges don't have headspace. So no you don't. Case lengths can be quickly checked by locking your Vernier to 2.494" and checking 'em. If they don't fit in the calipre, they need trimming(chamfering and deburring). Trim to 2.484".
Like dahermit says, the rings are just crimp marks. Nothing to worry about. Neither is the OD's if the cases drop into the chamber. The chamber is the best case/cartridge gauge there is.
"...Screw the full length sizer in until it touches the shell holder..." Just a kiss.

[BoogieMan]

I made a gage block with a .375 hole which is what the gage diam in the Lee manual is. Checked a few after resizing and im +-.001 using calipers. Thats close enough for me. I am facing the cases to 2.484 per the cut length in the Lyman manual and suggestions from this thread. Im happy with the results.
My biggest problem is that being new to reloading I dont know what acceptable results are and how they will effect the end result. Im guessing that considering the process that I have some room. At least a few thou. in either direction for everything.

[603Country]

For headspace considerations, do what Bart B suggested in resetting the shoulder slightly upon resizing. As for how to do that, it might be that setting the FL resizing die so that it kisses the shell holder is the right amount, but that could and quite possibly will oversize the case (push the shoulder back too far). That will eventually cause case head separation as you do that repeatedly. So...screw in the die and resize a case too little and try to chamber it. Then screw in the die a tiny bit more and resize that case and try to chamber it. Do so until the case chambers easily. Now set the ring on the die and leave it there henceforth.

You can buy all sorts of case measurement gear to do the same thing. It's probably more exact if you do it with all the right tools, but do it as I suggest above and skip buying all that gear.

[Snyper]

I pick up range brass every chance I get, and I dont worry bout headstamps so much. I inspect the once-fired range brass for excessive pressure, bad headspace, splits, cracks, etc.

How do you determine how many times a piece of brass has been fired, when you picked it up at a range?

[Unclenick]

BoogieMan,

Case length is different from overall length, which includes the bullet. I'll put my terminology illustration below just so everyone can be on the same page.

The SAAMI case length confuses people because it has a unilateral tolerance. Everyone is familiar with plus or minus tolerances, but a standard engineering practice is that when exceeding the tolerance range at one end of the spectrum prevents assembly or function of any kind, that end is called the critical dimension. When there is one, the practice is to give the critical end of the tolerance range as the part dimension, then give the tolerance only in the other direction, minus for smaller and plus for larger. The average will then be the given dimension plus half the tolerance.

For a cartridge, the critical dimension is its maximum size, since making it too big will prevent it from being chambered and functioning at all, where making it a little smaller than the other end of the tolerance will still allow assembly (chambering) even if best function is somewhat compromised. So case length and diameters are given as maximum dimensions and the tolerance is minus-only. For a chamber it is the other way around, with the smallest size being critical, since too small will prevent chambering or function, and the tolerance is plus-only.

For .30-06, the case length is given as 2.494" - 0.020". That is, the maximum length of the case that is certain to chamber properly is 2.494", but it is still acceptable to be as short as 2.474". The usual trim-to length is simply set into the middle of that range at 2.484" to give you a little error room either side of that number. The military uses a slightly shorter -0.015" tolerance, so military cases are often trimmed to average 2.4865".

In the past I have recommended the same improvised method Bart does. I wouldn't worry about it being exact. You can't calibrate it exactly without the hole being perfect in diameter and dead sharp at the corner. Instead a little radius is allowed and a precision headspace GO gauge is used to calibrate it where an exact absolute measurement is needed. But you don't need that. All you need to do is compare the as-fired brass to the resized brass and see that the latter is about -0.002" shorter. -0.001" to -0.003" usually work just fine and don't overwork the brass. Most new brass is near the low end of the shoulder datum tolerance range, so you can take a new cartridge and measure that on the gauge and figure it with likely within 0.001" of the minimum datum length and get close to what you are sizing to from that, if it matters to you.

This case was 0.003" bigger than a headspace GO gauge:


This is exaggerated drawing shows why you trim after sizing: Resizing squeezes brass up into the neck making it longer:


Bullet and case terminology:


One question: does that bright ring just below the shoulder appear on your extracted case after firing? I'm wondering it its caused by a score in the chamber at that location.

[BoogieMan]

Unclenick- that ring at the shoulder is from the FL resize die. The above cases have been resized. The charts you posted are very helpful in the interest of uniformity. I hope you don't mind if I print them and reuse them. the minus dimension for case and plus for chamber makes perfect sense. How did you arrive at your tolerance of -.02". I read through both my manuals and did not find that information.
I have now resized all of them. Mixed ppu,fed,rem,horn with little problem after I got rolling. I trimmed them all to 1.484 with a few cases not cleaning up all the way around. Chamfered id and od. I also ran a drill through all of the primer holes so that are uniform.

[hooligan1]

How do I determine that the range brass I pick up has been once-fired? Well mostly I check the primer color, if its brass and the casemouths are not soot covered than they 99 percent of the time, at this range are oncefired...
And sometimes people do leave exceptional oncefired stuff...

[F. Guffey]

How did you arrive at your tolerance of -.02". I read through both my manuals and did not find that information.

It is like immediate neighborhood acceptance, all you have to do is mow your lawn.

Bump your shoulder .002" and obtain immediate reloading acceptance. Problem, I can not bump the shoulder without case body support. Meaning when I size a case and control the length of the case from the datum to the case head I adjust my die to, or off, or below the shell holder. I adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage.

I am the only reloader that knows the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face before sizing cases for the chamber. Other reloaders could measure the length of the fired case from the datum/shoulder to the case head before sizing. After sizing they could compare the length of the sized case with the case before sizing from the shoulder to the head of the case. The magic .002" is almost always associated with the word 'bump', I associate bump to a degree of an accident. There is nothing I do when sizing a case that resembles an accident.

Then there is the minimum length case, there is the case that is go-gage length, there is the no go-gage length case and lastly? There is the field reject length case. That is 4 different case length from the shoulder to the head of the case. Because I size cases for my chambers I use all the numbers from minimum length to field reject length.

F. Guffey

[hooligan1]

F. Guffey, how do you know the length of your chambers? You've obviously made a precision tool you can adjust and slip in the chamber of any rifle and adjust until bolt closes, and thus the measurement is real,,,,,,right? I've been reading your post since 2009, and sometimes I read them again and again,(ADD) And I have realized your a mechanical type engineer...I'm not that smart, but I'm beginning to realize my damn toolbox needs help, can you PM, me so I can pick your brain a bit?

[Bart B.]

It's easy to find out what your chamber headspace (bolt face to shoulder reference) is by measuring that of a fired case then add .001" to it. Here's how:

1. Obtain a GO headspace gauge; for a .30-06, it'll have a length from its head to its shoulder reference diameter of 2.049"

2. Use the gauge from a Hornady LNL Case Headspace kit with a "C" gauge with a .375" reference diameter fit to a caliper.

3. Measure the GO headspace gauge then adjust the caliper to read 2.049" with the C gauge against the headspace gauge shoulder.

4. Measure a fired case headspace. If it reads 2.051", add .001" to that; the 2.052" answer is what your chamber headspace is. Fired cases (normal maximum, safe pressure loads) typically have a headspace about .001" less than chamber headspace.

Set the die in the press so a full length sized .30-06 case has a headspace abut .002" less than what it was when fired. In this example, you'll want the sized case headspace to be 2.049" (2.051" fired minus .002" equals 2.049" sized).

Or, more simply done, use the LNL gauge to measure a fired case headspace then set the die to size the case so its headspace is .002" less. The exact headspace numbers are not all that important; just the differences.

You can also use the link in post #10 showing how to use a nylon spacer to measure case headspace.

[hooligan1]

I read the link and looked over the pics of the resized brass, bottom left picture showed a measurement of 2.043, then magically you stretched it to 2.047, I cant get my die to stretch brass like that I guess, but I get the jest of how to measure head to shoulder from my bolthead, thanks.

[Unclenick]

BoogieMan,

The -0.020" case length tolerance is on the SAAMI drawing. The military drawing with -0.015" is in Hatcher's Notebook, and you can probably find it in military ammo specs. Note that the military drawings from Hatcher's day do not use a datum in the mid shoulder, but measure from the intersect of the side and shoulder. It's not as easy to be exact with that old method because the actual shoulders always have a slight radius.

I would link you to the SAAMI drawing directly but their web site is down. It looks like they forgot to renew with their host, and it ran out yesterday. They'll probably fix it next week. In the meanwhile, scroll down on this page to see what is probably not a legal copy (so I won't put it up, here). The upper drawing is the cartridge and the bottom is the chamber. The second horizontal dimension from the bottom of the cartridge drawing image is the case length and tolerance dimension.

That ring on your brass is curiously pronounced. I expect a little, but the whole shoulder looks rounded from the angle you offered. But it just may be the lighting. Can you stand a case up and put a white background behind it so we can see the profile more clearly?

BTW, as a photo tip, if you pop down to Lowe's or Home Depot you can pick up daylight color LED light bulbs at reasonable prices these days. I think I paid <$6 for non-dimmable 60W equivalents the other day. Their light would fix the color balance of your indoor photos and make it a little easier to see what really looks normal and what doesn't.

My rule about copying any of my images is that it is free for anyone educating other shooters or themselves. If you use it it as part of a commercial activity, I ask you to make a donation to a veteran's charity in return for its use. E. A. Brown did that for using one of them in one of their online articles a couple of years ago. It's all on the honor system, but shooters are generally more honorable than average, I find.