Advice on Finding a Good Armed Self-Defense Trainer?

vitesse9 · December 11, 2004, 11:53 PM

I'm a regular shooter. I've been in a very dangerous home invasion robbery situation (the event that prompted me to buy my first gun), so I have a general idea how I respond to life threatening situations and what they feel like etc. I consider myself a good shot, and I practice more than just slow fire target. I regularly work with my holster with draw and fire drills. I work on double taps and quick sight aqcuisition etc.

I think I have the basic handgunning skills to hold my own if I were ever in another life-or-death situation. But I fear even the experience of being attacked and all my practice leaves me wanting in armed self-defense skills. Since I have a CC Permit, I kind of feel that I should get more formal training (beyond the training I needed to qualify for the permit in the first place).

Based on my current skill level, anyone have any advice as to what kind of training to look for? Can't really spend the time or $ to go out-of-state to one of those defense institutes or anything. Has to be a local class or trainer who I can work with on weekends or after work.

BTW I live in St. Pertersburg Florida if anyone actually knows of a good trainer in my area.

Blackhawk6 · December 12, 2004, 11:21 AM

An important question without an easy answer. Your a likely to get a number of varied opinions on what it is that qualifies someone to be an armed self-defense instructor. When you say "armed self-defense instructor" I am assuming your primary goal is to learn to fight with your firearm(s) vs. improve your marksmanship.

Unfortunately, while there are a number of qualified people instructing, there are a greater number of less-than-qualified people instructing as well. The best way to differentiate between the two is to review their resume. Here are the criteria I would look for in an instructor.

1. The instructor runs a "hot range." A hot range is one where the students keep their weapon loaded. A cold range would be one where students load their weapons just prior to firing and unload immediately after firing. Either technique is safe and I believe it speaks volumes about an instructor's qualifications if he is uncomfortable supervising a hot range. Hot ranges and the NRA are generally incompatible.

2. The instructor has instructed for a government agency. If the instructor has served as a firearms instructor for a law enforcement agency or the military it is fair to assume they have the type of background you desire. Most law enforcement/military organization carefully select the personnel they use to train the rest of their personnel. They also often spend a great deal of time furthering their instructors' education.

3. The instructor has completed a nationally-recognized firearms instructor certification program. The NRA runs the only non-governmental firearms instructor programs at a national level that I am aware of. Their civilian firearms instructor program are really geared toward teaching basic skills rather than gunfighting. Their Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor courses are a bit more relevant to what I believe you are looking for in a course. Completion of the FBI's Firearms Instructor Course of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center's (FLETC) Firearms Instructor Program are two good examples.

4. The instructor has served in a law enforcement or military capacity. The exact capacity needs to be carefully examined. If the military capacity was as a cook on the U.S.S. Minnow or his 5 years in law enforcement was as the motor pool supervisor, your money and time are probably best spent elsewhere.

5. Affiliation with an established shooting school. Most shooting schools are frequented by not only civilians but armed professionals as well. Most schools can ill-afford to have questionable instructors on staff.

6. The instructor has been involved in a gunfight. There is no substitute for experience.

I would say an instructor who has 3 or more of the qualities listed is a good bet.

Some qualities I consider to be "Red Flags":

1. Unwillingness or inability to document military experience. Every person discharged from the military receives a DD-214, even those who served in Special Operations. DD-214's are not classified. If it is not on the DD-214, it did not happen.

2. Service as a Reserve Police Officer. Many less-than-qualified personnel have begun to realize that law enforcement experience is an asset to their resume. As a result they obtain a position as a Reserve Officer in order to claim "law enforcement experience." It is important to note that many qualified instructors also serve as Reserve Officers. The difference lies in whether all of the individual's experience is as a Reserve Officer.

3. Lengthy lists of civilian shooting schools. A number of people take ten courses at school like Gunsite and then feel qualified to teach. While they may have good information to offer, they may not as well. Just as there is a difference between a law school graduate and a law school professor, there is a difference between a Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc. graduate and instructor.

4. Over-emphasis on competitive shooting. Lengthy lists of matches attended/won or shooting titles really have no bearing on gunfighting. Some instructors highlight their competitive achievements because many potential students only want to learn from a "Master." Unfortunately, such titles are not awarded outside of competitive shooting. Anyone relying solely on their performance in IDPA, IPSC or another competitive venue to justify their credentials as an instructor is best avoided. If you can attend a class with a qualified instructor who is also a highly skilled competitor (Ernest Langdon and Dave Harrington both come to mind), you are fortunate.

Please keep in mind these are my criteria. There may be some well-qualified instructors who do not meet my criteria.

I am unaware of any instructors in your area. Many times you can coordinate with an instructor to conduct a class in your area. Generally, if you organize a class in your area, you train at a reduced rate or for free.

Below are links to a few instructors I would recommend you contact if you are interested in scheduling a class. I believe Jeff Gonzales, of Trident Concepts, moderates here.

http://www.insightstraining.com/
http://www.internationaltactical.com/
http://www.tridentconcepts.com/

Phil306 · December 12, 2004, 08:50 PM

Blackhawk wrote same damn good suggestions, I suggest you follow them. I will give you the names of some EXCELLENT trainers out there. None of them are less then qualified and none lie and/or embellish their records.

In no particular order:

Paul Howe
Louis Awerbuck
Ron Avery
Bennie Cooley Jr
Herschel B Davis
Randy Cain
Scott Reitz
Walt Marshall

You also can't go wrong taking training at Gunsite, ThunderRanch, or Blackwater Lodge. Another good place for training is SigArms Academy.

Those are just MY opinions and, as you well know, opinons are like...

Thin The Herd

106RR · December 14, 2004, 03:36 AM

I have taken classes from Louis Awerbuck. He is cost effective and practical. I was pleased with his professionalism in class. Google Yavapai Firearms Academy for a schedule. He goes around the country offering classes locally. In the past he has teamed up with other consumate professionals like Ken Campbell and Scott Reitz. His classes are well worth the money.There are a some great instructors listed on this thread but I think Louis may be the best bang for the buck and one of the few who might be in your area soon. Safety is critical, don't bother signing up for his classes unless you can safely handle your weapon.

AUG · December 14, 2004, 04:07 AM

I think Louis Awerbuck is the best instructor in the world. I can think of none better.

AUG · December 14, 2004, 04:18 AM

Let me add a little to this.......

If you have never had any formal training (ccw class does not count) consider yourself a novice regardless of how much shooting you have done. Tactics is a very different aspect of training than actual shooting.

I have a LE background and went through 60 hours of firearms training in the police academy. This is a good bit more training than most people ever recieve. Even after that training I was not where I wanted to be. I practiced alot and got good enough shooter to finish near the top in some local matches. I took some classes from Lou Awerbuck and saw the light. I learned more from his classes in 6 days than I learned in several years of fairly serious reading and shooting. Professional instruction has no substitute.

If you are already a above average marksman (sounds like you are) concentrate your training on the mental aspects and tactics areas of self defense.

December 11, 2004, 11:53 PM	#1
vitesse9 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2004 Posts: 340	Advice on Finding a Good Armed Self-Defense Trainer? I'm a regular shooter. I've been in a very dangerous home invasion robbery situation (the event that prompted me to buy my first gun), so I have a general idea how I respond to life threatening situations and what they feel like etc. I consider myself a good shot, and I practice more than just slow fire target. I regularly work with my holster with draw and fire drills. I work on double taps and quick sight aqcuisition etc. I think I have the basic handgunning skills to hold my own if I were ever in another life-or-death situation. But I fear even the experience of being attacked and all my practice leaves me wanting in armed self-defense skills. Since I have a CC Permit, I kind of feel that I should get more formal training (beyond the training I needed to qualify for the permit in the first place). Based on my current skill level, anyone have any advice as to what kind of training to look for? Can't really spend the time or $ to go out-of-state to one of those defense institutes or anything. Has to be a local class or trainer who I can work with on weekends or after work. BTW I live in St. Pertersburg Florida if anyone actually knows of a good trainer in my area.

December 12, 2004, 08:50 PM	#3
Phil306 Member Join Date: May 24, 2004 Location: Dublin, California Posts: 76	Blackhawk wrote same damn good suggestions, I suggest you follow them. I will give you the names of some EXCELLENT trainers out there. None of them are less then qualified and none lie and/or embellish their records. In no particular order: Paul Howe Louis Awerbuck Ron Avery Bennie Cooley Jr Herschel B Davis Randy Cain Scott Reitz Walt Marshall You also can't go wrong taking training at Gunsite, ThunderRanch, or Blackwater Lodge. Another good place for training is SigArms Academy. Those are just MY opinions and, as you well know, opinons are like... Thin The Herd __________________ "You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life." Sir Winston Churchill

December 12, 2004, 11:21 AM	#2
Blackhawk6 Member Join Date: October 27, 2002 Posts: 58	An important question without an easy answer. Your a likely to get a number of varied opinions on what it is that qualifies someone to be an armed self-defense instructor. When you say "armed self-defense instructor" I am assuming your primary goal is to learn to fight with your firearm(s) vs. improve your marksmanship. Unfortunately, while there are a number of qualified people instructing, there are a greater number of less-than-qualified people instructing as well. The best way to differentiate between the two is to review their resume. Here are the criteria I would look for in an instructor. 1. The instructor runs a "hot range." A hot range is one where the students keep their weapon loaded. A cold range would be one where students load their weapons just prior to firing and unload immediately after firing. Either technique is safe and I believe it speaks volumes about an instructor's qualifications if he is uncomfortable supervising a hot range. Hot ranges and the NRA are generally incompatible. 2. The instructor has instructed for a government agency. If the instructor has served as a firearms instructor for a law enforcement agency or the military it is fair to assume they have the type of background you desire. Most law enforcement/military organization carefully select the personnel they use to train the rest of their personnel. They also often spend a great deal of time furthering their instructors' education. 3. The instructor has completed a nationally-recognized firearms instructor certification program. The NRA runs the only non-governmental firearms instructor programs at a national level that I am aware of. Their civilian firearms instructor program are really geared toward teaching basic skills rather than gunfighting. Their Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor courses are a bit more relevant to what I believe you are looking for in a course. Completion of the FBI's Firearms Instructor Course of the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center's (FLETC) Firearms Instructor Program are two good examples. 4. The instructor has served in a law enforcement or military capacity. The exact capacity needs to be carefully examined. If the military capacity was as a cook on the U.S.S. Minnow or his 5 years in law enforcement was as the motor pool supervisor, your money and time are probably best spent elsewhere. 5. Affiliation with an established shooting school. Most shooting schools are frequented by not only civilians but armed professionals as well. Most schools can ill-afford to have questionable instructors on staff. 6. The instructor has been involved in a gunfight. There is no substitute for experience. I would say an instructor who has 3 or more of the qualities listed is a good bet. Some qualities I consider to be "Red Flags": 1. Unwillingness or inability to document military experience. Every person discharged from the military receives a DD-214, even those who served in Special Operations. DD-214's are not classified. If it is not on the DD-214, it did not happen. 2. Service as a Reserve Police Officer. Many less-than-qualified personnel have begun to realize that law enforcement experience is an asset to their resume. As a result they obtain a position as a Reserve Officer in order to claim "law enforcement experience." It is important to note that many qualified instructors also serve as Reserve Officers. The difference lies in whether all of the individual's experience is as a Reserve Officer. 3. Lengthy lists of civilian shooting schools. A number of people take ten courses at school like Gunsite and then feel qualified to teach. While they may have good information to offer, they may not as well. Just as there is a difference between a law school graduate and a law school professor, there is a difference between a Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, etc. graduate and instructor. 4. Over-emphasis on competitive shooting. Lengthy lists of matches attended/won or shooting titles really have no bearing on gunfighting. Some instructors highlight their competitive achievements because many potential students only want to learn from a "Master." Unfortunately, such titles are not awarded outside of competitive shooting. Anyone relying solely on their performance in IDPA, IPSC or another competitive venue to justify their credentials as an instructor is best avoided. If you can attend a class with a qualified instructor who is also a highly skilled competitor (Ernest Langdon and Dave Harrington both come to mind), you are fortunate. Please keep in mind these are my criteria. There may be some well-qualified instructors who do not meet my criteria. I am unaware of any instructors in your area. Many times you can coordinate with an instructor to conduct a class in your area. Generally, if you organize a class in your area, you train at a reduced rate or for free. Below are links to a few instructors I would recommend you contact if you are interested in scheduling a class. I believe Jeff Gonzales, of Trident Concepts, moderates here. http://www.insightstraining.com/ http://www.internationaltactical.com/ http://www.tridentconcepts.com/

December 14, 2004, 03:36 AM	#4
106RR Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2002 Posts: 234	I have taken classes from Louis Awerbuck. He is cost effective and practical. I was pleased with his professionalism in class. Google Yavapai Firearms Academy for a schedule. He goes around the country offering classes locally. In the past he has teamed up with other consumate professionals like Ken Campbell and Scott Reitz. His classes are well worth the money.There are a some great instructors listed on this thread but I think Louis may be the best bang for the buck and one of the few who might be in your area soon. Safety is critical, don't bother signing up for his classes unless you can safely handle your weapon.

December 14, 2004, 04:07 AM	#5
AUG Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2000 Location: East TN Posts: 434	I think Louis Awerbuck is the best instructor in the world. I can think of none better.

December 14, 2004, 04:18 AM	#6
AUG Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2000 Location: East TN Posts: 434	Let me add a little to this....... If you have never had any formal training (ccw class does not count) consider yourself a novice regardless of how much shooting you have done. Tactics is a very different aspect of training than actual shooting. I have a LE background and went through 60 hours of firearms training in the police academy. This is a good bit more training than most people ever recieve. Even after that training I was not where I wanted to be. I practiced alot and got good enough shooter to finish near the top in some local matches. I took some classes from Lou Awerbuck and saw the light. I learned more from his classes in 6 days than I learned in several years of fairly serious reading and shooting. Professional instruction has no substitute. If you are already a above average marksman (sounds like you are) concentrate your training on the mental aspects and tactics areas of self defense.