what's the difference?

[Danindetroit]

John, I just thought that some of the things in Ninjato posts, were a little erroneous.

Systems that focus on SPEED, POWER, and STRENGTH, tend to NOT work well for smaller people.

[Ninjato]

John, I just thought that some of the things in Ninjato posts, were a little erroneous.

I understand that I am a new member here and sometimes that is hard to jump into a group of people who know each other and say something that may not sound "correct". I do speak from experience.

I have been involved in the martial arts for over 33 years. I started when I was 6 yrs old. I have trained in:

Judo
Shorin Ryu
Tae Kwon Do
Northern Shaolin Kung Fu
Currently teach and train in Tai Chi Chuan and Bajichuan.

I have been involved in the internal arts for the last 17 years.

Sorry if I ruined somebody's thread by posting erroneously.

If you do not understand what I meant by the comment of SPEED, POWER, and STRENGTH don't work for smaller people then your martial art training has not reached a high level.

[DarkKnight01]

Ninjato:

i personally found your post to be accurate... i believe i gave very similar advice.. after 33 years im sure you have seen it first hand that size and muscle mass has nothing to do with strength... as i posted above... im about 6'2 and around 200lbs... and have been thrown over 10 feet by very small females... could this have been done with muscle mass? i dont think thats physically possible...

on a side note, where do u teach Tai Chi? its a style ive been interested in for some time, id like to try it out =) what should i look for in a good instructor and dojo in this style?

[Ninjato]

where do u teach Tai Chi? its a style ive been interested in for some time, id like to try it out =) what should i look for in a good instructor and dojo in this style?

DK: I teach Tai Chi in Philadelphia, PA. You can check out my school at www.baztaichi.com

As far as instruction, it is good to find a Tai Chi school that teaches the martial aspects. Tai Chi has been mis-represented by the health/hippie/alternative life groupies.

It is good to start with YANG style Tai Chi then expand your research into the other Tai Chi styles or internal styles.

I have found Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming 's book ADVANCED TAI CHI VOL2 is a very good translation/interpretation of the concepts of Tai Chi.

Most importantly, the internal Chinese martial arts are based on concepts and not "techniques". The techniques will offer themselves to you if/when the principles of the art are adhered to.

A good Tai Chi school has a thorough PUSH HANDS (tui shou) regimen (not to be confused w/ Wing Chun "sticky hands".

[DarkKnight01]

Ninjato:

great thx for the info =) and doh... wish i lived in philly... i live just outside pittsburgh... youll have to let me know if u ever have a training seminar in the area, id be happy to attend =)

and yes Tai Chi has been misinterpreted over the years, but i dont listen to that crap... i believe in listening to people that actually know what their talking about... where i grew up in MI there was a Tai Chi dojo there.. i never got a chance to train there but knew some of the students quite well, and from their info the instructor was nothing short of wonderful... he explained the concepts very well and presented them just as well. unfortunately i never got a chance to train there as i moved shortly after finding it, all in all its a style ive been interested in for some time

and great website =) and ive written down the name of the book u recommended and ill pick it up when i find it

thx for the info.

[Danindetroit]

Once again I think they are disciplines, and are hard to master, and consider myself a rank, amateur who knows some things. I have been to to places where a "black belt" was sparring. and everytime he closed with his partner, he turned his head away. I walked out. I have been lucky to have good periphal vision, and decent observational skills. When a situation goes bad I do alright, from a car doing doughnuts on the freeway ahead of me because of ice, and just easing off the gas while it passes right in front of me, and not slamming on the bakes, to this guy has been "eyeing" my friend talking to a girl, and is now coming over, maybe we should move a little. You didn't ruin a thread you added some things. I guess i have always had the analogy with martial arts, and especially most eastern martial arts if a bull is charging do you stand your ground and stop it, or step to the side. I prefer to step to the side. I had a rough night last night. I guess Muay Thai could be considered a Power to Power martial arts a leg kick is a nice way to close the gap, your opinion is always welcome with me. I don't care about your # of posts, or when you joined you bring your experence and opinion to the table, and yours seems valid to me.

Dk, no disrespect, The throw by a very small female, were you moving or just standing still? Watch olympic weightlifting. That is power, with co-ordiantion, and the women throw up some weight. In martial arts getting your opponent to move and then adding to that movement is a great technique. If you do not use weights you are training for power by using fast kicks or punches, a fast punch is powerful. A stong, semi fast punch may have the same power. I have read a book called a scientific approach to powerlifting. It is your nerves that make you powerful, look at football players who are paralyzed, the have big muscle, and no power. Training all your nerves in the muscles to "fire" simultaneously for a punch or to bench is very similar at the neural level. A big muscle is easier to make powerful, but is not always desirable.

I am sure that a small person can use somebody's own momentum against them, and can get a person moving to do it. If I ran at a trained person, and they basicaly grabbed an arm or what ever fell, backwards adding to my momentum, and they planted a foot or two in my gut, they could propel my a distance. Pick me up where i am standing, and throw me no way.

I did not train traditional martial arts for a long time or in a long time. It was quality instruction, with real world stuff, and the saftey equipment was on the whole time. I did not have the chance to train long. I like to lift weights, and it is easier or was easier to find a gym. I think the UFC is close to streetfight, and just like I said close. They can be slugfests, they can go to the ground, and anything in between. It is closer than K-1 where a ref stands you up after going down. I believe they tell a fighting stlye of each fighter, before they enter the ring, and thought that it might help make a decision. I know "Gracie" jiu jitsu was declared the best martial arts after one of the brother won, but now, most guys have a very diverse background, from olympic wrestlers, to all sorts of martial arts. I believe this kid wants to be able to "stun" not hurt a bulley,etc, and run to get help.

Martial arts is interesting. It really doesn't matter where you start or what system you choose. You will ultimately gravitate to what feels best for you. Preferences of styles change as your growth in the arts mature.

My recommendation is Tae Kwon Do as a basis. It will give you time to develop fundamental control of your body. Trust me, controling your body is a lot harder than you think. Chinese martial arts systems are rooted in a lot of concepts and philosophy. It is best to pursue these systems at a more advanced skill level.

That seemed a little contradictary to me.

2 people equal in every way, except one person has more power, speed, strength, I am betting with power, speed, and strength. I guess I interpreted that you meant these things were bad, I think they should be striven for. It just means that you can let a person possibly think they have scared you by getting close, and moving on, when you just saved them pain. Women do have a great capacity to get strong, and fast. They unfortunately think they are going to get "muscular" when most of the time they get toned, and strong. Hitting a heavy bag, hitting the speed bag. I just know with my size and strength, I trained with a guy who was trained for almost 12 years, and when he messed around and started doing back spin quicks at my head, I stayed back, and closed the gap, and grabbed him out of midair and fell on him elbows leading. I also had a decent jab to keep him at distance. What does it all boil down to in my opinion, have enough confidence, in your training, and your body to know, when to just go and when to not go.

[Ninjato]

Danindetroit:

A person can start right away with Kung Fu. Many have been successful. From my experience, I find that it is harder at first to try to use KF techniques at an early stage of training. TKD offers a more practical approach and can be mastered in a shorter period of time.

I trained with a guy who was trained for almost 12 years, and when he messed around and started doing back spin quicks at my head, I stayed back, and closed the gap, and grabbed him out of midair and fell on him elbows leading

Martial art techniques DO NOT work when just 'messin around'. They have to be applied w/ full intent or else it is meaningless.

back spin quicks at my head

That is a mark of TKD. Kicks to the head in a real fight generally don't work. Keep kicks no higher than the hip bones.

When looking TKD and the high TKD kicks, remember that in history, these kicks were developed to kick mounted soldiers. In order to kick at a midsection of a person on a horse, one must be able to kick high or even jump kick. Kicking high has the benefit in training only for strength and speed. The higher and faster you can kick at head level, it is that much easier and faster from the midsection down.

[Danindetroit]

I meant messing around because we usually had a plan for our training, kind of an informal lesson plan that we talked about. That wasn't in it, but we both learned from it, in some of my earlier post in reference to Burce lee he states some of those princples, block a punch with a hand slaping to the offenders fist or forearm throw him off balance, why move your foot to his head. When your fist or elbow is withing a 15". Some of the breaking blows to shoulders I thought were meant to break armor, but may be used to break a clavicle. Like I said I did not get enough formal training.

A lot of blunt weapons are used to prepare rice for eating. And some of the sickle like to harvest it from the fields.

I have never kicked higher than the knee. It don't work for me. I think knowing my weaknesses, had helped me more in actual encouters. I do not go out looking for fights, but I don't let people get bullied, I like to feel that if someone in my family was in trouble somebody would step up. Now how can I have that attitude, and not do the same. Most of the time it is nothing more than asking what is going on, or is there a problem, while one person leaves, and saying to the agressor well he's gone now, gee. But knowing that you are prepared a little means you can do that instead of relying on sucker punching somebody who actually might have ben wronged, or whatever. Everybody goes home. I stopped looking at ohter people when driving, while I drove a truck, I was flipped off for being too slow, backing into a business(which is the correct way in MI because you have the right of way, backing out, traffic has the right of way, and you might not see them) I am worn out hopefully RG has enough to make his choice.

[AUG]

I'm sure I will get attacked for this comment but.........

I have been in several and have witnessed many street fights. I am by no means a great street fighter but have kicked the crap out of a black belt (some sort of kung fu) before. OTOH, I got the chit kicked out of me by a @ 150 lb. amatuer boxer once. Everytime this guy connected it felt like getting hit with a brick. He probably would have put me in the hospital if I didn't pepper spray him. He busted me up pretty good anyway.

I have seen many guys that were educated in martial arts get spanked all over the place by brawlers.

The most dominat arts I have seen in street fights are brawling (is that even an art?) and American boxing. I guess the main benefit of American boxing is the fact that those guys are usually in way better shape and way stronger than a martial artist.

One great advantage that seems to almost always have an impact on the outcome is size and strength. Very rarely does the smaller and weaker guy win.

[rugerdude]

Well, I found a place that teaches kickboxing and TKD within a quarter mile of my house. I never knew it existed before. What is kickboxing all about? Is it something I could start out with without much trouble?

Thanks in advance,
rugerdude

[Danindetroit]

The only thing I know about kickboxing was it was a spectator sport. It didn't allow kicks below the belt, or elbows. They had a mandatory amount of kicks thrown in each round, this alway made me think kicking above the waist wasn't the best idea. There was a guy called bad Brad Hefton, heavy weight, non-bodybuilder type who used a jump spinning back kick to his opponents midsection, and tko them. That sport was litterally boxing where you could kick.
Kickboxing might be a term used to just describe a martial arts, that the owner does not want to pay a franchise fee for, or it might mean that you get to spar, realisticly. Sounds like a place to check out, go watch, they probably have group, and individual lessons. 1/4 mile jog should get you warmed up to stretch out before your lessons, if the road is safe. Hope it all works out.

[Ninjato]

It all in POV. A martial artist studies so as NOT to fight. Many times a martial artist will lose because most of the time, his skill is not at a high level. In today's market, a black belt doesn't mean crap. A black belt does not hold the value it once did. The training and rigors one had to go thru to get a black belt are not done in most of today's commercialized schools.

Boxers have the great advantage of being able to take a hit. It is very hard to "hurt" a guy that is used to getting hurt. Chances are his stamina is better too. Although a martial artist has more "tools" at his disposal, it doesn't guarantee anything......neither does having a gun.

The biggest issue most martial artists need to understand is, once a fight starts, fight to KILL. Anything less will get you messed up. There is no reason to fight other than to save your own life. If the fight ends and BOTH parties go to the hospital, then no one won.

[John Ringo]

Guess this is turning into a pretty wicked debate:-)

I would say that physical strength and body size MOST CERTAINLY has a lot to do with winning factors in a street fight. Not always, but a lot of the time. The bigger someone is the more damage that they can do to you. But I have also been in the ring with some 250 to 270 lbs boxers that would just laugh when I would hit them in the face.

Someone like Mike Tyson would be an example. An average fighter could punch and kick him all day long while he stood there and laughed. But if he hit you once he would break every bone in someone's face. His punches are much more devastating due to his strength and body mass.

But let me say that I am talking here about trained fighters....not some 300lbs dude on his way out of Pizza Hut :-)

[Danindetroit]

Does anyone really know why kickboxing would be on a advertisement for a TKD establishment? Is it just a way to tell the untrained that they teach kicking, or the rules of "kickboxing".

[John Ringo]

One more thing here:

When I began training in the Chuck Norris school back in 1985, I trained with some very good martial artists from several different systems. Even Bill "Superfoot" Wallace used to hold some seminars. Most of our work was with self-defense, one-step punches, and sparing. There were no "bare knuckles" matches or exercises designed to see if you could withstand a knock-out in the ring. Most sparing matches where based on a three-point system. The martial artists had respect for one another, and nobody would get onto the mat with the expectation of beating the snot out of someone. Things were done professionally and with respect for other students.

Yes, there were many cases where there were 100 lbs women who could throw a person across the room as well as 150lbs guys who could do a back-flip while kicking the ceiling. Actually I was one of those guys when I was about 18 years old. At public demonstrations I would kick a focus pad held on a staff at around 8 or 9 feet from the floor for a round of applause. It was all clean fun.

When I joined the USMC and got out into the world of collegiate boxing I very quickly learned that other fighters where not willing partners. They would not stand there and let you thrown them around like a good sport :-) Their mission in the ring or in the sand-pit was to win. They were not going to run up and put you into a "bear hug" so that you could demonstrate how you could toss them across the room. This is where I learned that there is a big difference between respectful martial artists performing self-defense drills versus people who want to knock your head off of your shoulders. Most of the time there is no way that a 100 lbs person is going to toss a 200 lbs fighter across the room unless the 200 lbs fighter let them do it. Unless of course it is someone like Gracie or some other seasoned competition fighter. This has been my experience. But, that is NOT to say that it is 100% impossible in 100% of the cases. Nothing is impossible. But some things are highly unlikely. Let's put it that way.

In my past experience, I have seen a lot of martial artists walk out of a dojo with their 1st DAN black belt and have the expectation that they can beat-down any opponent that crosses their path because he or she has a black belt or midnight blue belt. The same holds true for recruit graduates of boot camp. Many of these people start strutting around like peacocks thinking that they are invincible. Of course this is against the philosophy of martial arts...but people do it. You guys have probably seen this before. The real world is often a harsh awakening for some of these folks when they encounter a dirty-fighter or an experienced street fighter.

I've seen some downright nasty street fighters in my time. I have a 3" knife wound in my left leg from one of them. My point with all of this is not to dismiss everything that any of you have said. I am not trying to argue that I am right and you are wrong. I am just presenting a counter-view to some of the preconceived notions of what a martial arts background can give you with personal experience. The biggest thing that one can learn from any martial arts system is to avoid fights and use your head. Sometimes our ego can write checks that our body can't cash.

It's nice chatting with you folks...just keep it civil :-) ha ha ha.

[Danindetroit]

I have to ask, is wallace the guy who had a bad knee injury, and was not that mobile, and would stand on his "bad leg", and use the other to deliver some devastating blows. I do prefer to use all the appropriate gear when sparring. Hand protection for the other person, and you, foot covers, that cover the instep, and the toes, MOUTHGAURD #1 concussion fighter, I think Elbow pads, knee pads, the most minimal headgear, and pull on groin protection was provided, since it went over the pants, and was able to be wiped with a cleaning solution. There was a minimum of protection required to spar. I think my equpment cost at least $100 more than 10 years ago. If you are going to really do some full contact stuff, spend the money.

[Doerdie]

"In today's market, a black belt doesn't mean crap. A black belt does not hold the value it once did. The training and rigors one had to go thru to get a black belt are not done in most of today's commercialized schools."

A black belt means you are no longer a beginner, nothing more, and from what I have learned that has been true for thousands of years. Anyone who thinks (or thought) that a Black Belt meant you were a Master is or was mistaken, a victem of hear-say or Hollywood. Achiving Black means that you have learned the "basics of the art" and are ready to BEGIN training, not advanced, but beginning training. Black is the beginning, not the end. It is a milestone to be proud of, but pride can get you hurt.
If you are interested in any martial art or boxing, go and Watch others a few times before joining, talk with the students and teachers. It is alot like buying a used car, you have to shop around and do your homework. If your looking purley at self-defense, make sure that point is known before you join a class. I think if you were to take kickboxing and American boxing you would be a fairly tough target for the bad guys after a few years. But a BG with a gun won't care, so its best to avoid the situations if possible.

"A man has got to know his limitations"

[AUG]

I have to say I am impressed with TFL today. I have not been attacked once!

In my expierence I have seen that some people are just better fighters than others. Some people can fight and some can't. End of story.

[Ninjato]

A black belt means you are no longer a beginner, nothing more, and from what I have learned that has been true for thousands of years. Anyone who thinks (or thought) that a Black Belt meant you were a Master is or was mistaken, a victem of hear-say or Hollywood. Achiving Black means that you have learned the "basics of the art" and are ready to BEGIN training, not advanced, but beginning training. Black is the beginning, not the end.

You'd be surprised at how many people do not understand this concept. After 30+ years, I still haven't found a good reason to quit yet.

[DarkKnight01]

Ninjato: "After 30+ years, I still haven't found a good reason to quit yet."

thats because there isnt any reasons =) ill quit when im dead =)

effective exercise, with more reward than a silly jane fonda work out video lol

[Ninjato]

Ninjato: "After 30+ years, I still haven't found a good reason to quit yet." thats because there isnt any reasons =) ill quit when im dead =) effective exercise, with more reward than a silly jane fonda work out video lol

HAHAHAHA....you know, when I was young (8yrs old) I saw some martial artists breaks bricks. I thought to myself that was the pinnacle of martial skill. By the time I was in 8th grade, I broke my first brick, but I was still getting my ass kicked in class.....hmmmmmmm.

[DarkKnight01]

Morihei Ueshiba having been the founder of Aikido which im sure your familiar with this information, born in 1883 and died in 1969 studied for the better part of his life i believe beginning study as young as 4... still considered himself a beginner the day he died... there is always room for improvement, no such thing as too much training =)

in comparison to what some know... including yourself... i know nothing after 19 years.... perhaps in another 15-20 ill begin to have a better grasp at knowing more =) but by that time ill probably still figure i know nothing... lol that seems to be how it goes. dedicating much of my life to martial arts is the greatest choice i have ever made, and would never do anything to change it even if i could. =)

[gunsmith1]

One bad thing I see in Martial arts is the people in small communities teaching it. Usually its some guy who took very limited lessons himself teaching a bunch of kids who unfortunately don't know the difference. I have yet to see a fight won by a local guy using martial arts. Usually they get their butt kicked in a bar for bragging that they are an "expert" in something. Im sure there are experts in the Martial arts but I feel they are few and far between.

[pointfiveoh]

The only style I have studied is Cuong Nhu, a hybrid of Vovi nam (think vietnamese kf), shotokan, judo, tai chi chuan, american boxing, aikido, and wing chun. I have found it to cater to many different body types. As far as winning a fight goes, I would probably rely more on my 6'5" 235 frame to win than try to be flashy. I'd never kick higher than knees in a fight as I'd like to keep my legs attached to my body. Knees and elbows are really all the tools I use. I agree with the point about boxers wailing on people because they really practice fighting. In sparring, most styles do not try to actually kill each other, whereas military training and boxing opponents do.
This may or may not be exactly correct but the USMC used to use judo for a lot of the self defense. I have had the privilege of learning some from Ernie Cates exUSMC, who if I remember correctly used to be the head NCO hand to hand instructor for recruits. He is 72 or 3 now and could kill anyone I know with his hands, what he lacks in speed he makes up for in sheer knowledge and experience. If you have a strong upper body, judo is not a bad choice, because since most fights will go to the ground, it's good to know how to dispatch your opponent on the ground, and if you're holding on to him, he can't hit you very well. Throwing your opponent will probably do more damage than punching him if you do it well because instead of a small impact, you hit his whole body with the ground with minimal damage done to yourself. That's good stuff if you don't train to harden your hands and strengthen wrists, punching something hard can really mess you up if you haven't prepared for it.
Wow... long first post.

[rugerdude]

Welcome to TFL, glad to have you aboard and thanks for the post.

Happy posting,
rugerdude