case inspection question

newguy07 · February 22, 2007, 09:56 PM

Still trying to learn before I get started reloading. The lyman manual and several websites all talk about inspecting the brass prior to reloading and on thing they mention to check for is incipient case head seperation. The say a warning sign is a bring ring just in front of the case web or in front of the head. Well I have 2 boxes of remington UMC 38 special cases that I bought new and fired once. When examining them all most all of them have a ring or two just infront of the head of the cartridge (not sure if I would consider them to be "bright" or not). Since I have not seen a picture showing what I should be looking for I am not sure if this is a warning sign of cartridge head seperaton or if it is something normal. These rings I am seeing would they be a sign of impending sepeartion on once fired cases or is it something else?

mrawesome22 · February 23, 2007, 12:35 AM

The ring you are seeing is simply where the soild head of the case meets the hollow body of the case. The chamber of your gun is bigger than the cartridge so this area expands, but the head does not because it is solid. Thus, you see this ring. Now when you resize, the body will get squeezed back down flush with the head of the case. Do this over and over and it creates a weak spot. Kind of like bending a paper clip too many times.

XD-Guy · February 24, 2007, 07:20 AM

Quote:

The ring you are seeing is simply where the soild head of the case meets the hollow body of the case. The chamber of your gun is bigger than the cartridge so this area expands, but the head does not because it is solid. Thus, you see this ring. Now when you resize, the body will get squeezed back down flush with the head of the case. Do this over and over and it creates a weak spot. Kind of like bending a paper clip too many times

What you say is true, however the ring he is seeing could also be due to the fact that the brass is thicker at the bottom of the case

newguy07 · February 24, 2007, 10:42 AM

So in other words this shouldnt be a sign of anything to worry about? Cases are still good to reload?

Windwalker · February 24, 2007, 11:56 AM

I can't say that I've ever seen one of my pistol cases seperate at the head, but I don't shoot any mag pistols. If my pistol cases go bad they split or crack along the body or mouth. For me head seperation happens in my rifle cases, seldom but it does happen. I don't load hot unless I'm messing around with my T/C 357 Herrett. That's where I tend to get into trouble, but I do have a lot of fun.

Trapper L · February 24, 2007, 02:36 PM

Considering that the 38 Special headspaces on the thickness of the rim, I would resize the brass and give it another look. Usually, if the brass does come apart on a straight wall case, it comes apart about 1/8" ahead of the rim. I have never damaged a gun having them come apart but please use best judgement here. Normally there are no rings on a 38 round. Might also want to have the gun checked if it has cylinders that are a tad large or the cylinder needs shimming to the action or even the crane is out of alignment. Sometimes it's better to have things checked by a smitty than to take a chance.

newguy07 · February 24, 2007, 03:38 PM

Well the gun is a brand new ruger gp141. Dont think there are any problems there

HiltonFarmer · February 24, 2007, 06:12 PM

Do you have a picture? It may help some in identifying whether or not this is (or should be) a concern for you.

IMO, if you have only fired them once, and they were factory loads, I wouldn't be too concerned about them.

HiltonFarmer

mrawesome22 · February 24, 2007, 11:08 PM

This is onced fired brass. You don't have to start worrying about head separation until around the 5th loading. With a straight walled revolver brass, the neck will probably split while seating a bullet long before a head separation will occur.

amamnn · February 25, 2007, 02:51 AM

The sizing die can leave a mark at the head/body junction sometimes. If you are worried about case head separation a simple check can be used. Form a tiny, pointed hook from a paper clip or other tiny metal object that can be inserted into the case and scraped from the head to the neck. If you feel the clip catch in a groove where you see the ring-- discard the case and back off the powder charge.

If the case is a straight walled pistol type, it is unlikely that you have separation. If it is a rifle case, that has not been loaded at or near max capacity using appropriate powders, less than 5 times or so, again it is unlikely to be separation. When you get an old rifle case that is beginning to separate, you'll then know the difference between that and a die mark.

newguy07 · February 25, 2007, 10:13 AM

Well they havent been through the die yet. These have been once shot factory ammo.

ShootingNut · February 25, 2007, 04:10 PM

I have seen the same thing recently with once fired factory loads. Is the "ring" sort of a copper color just above the head? That's what I have seen, and not all fired from the same box had this show up?

newguy07 · February 25, 2007, 06:24 PM

sounds about right.

February 22, 2007, 09:56 PM	#1
newguy07 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2007 Posts: 134	case inspection question Still trying to learn before I get started reloading. The lyman manual and several websites all talk about inspecting the brass prior to reloading and on thing they mention to check for is incipient case head seperation. The say a warning sign is a bring ring just in front of the case web or in front of the head. Well I have 2 boxes of remington UMC 38 special cases that I bought new and fired once. When examining them all most all of them have a ring or two just infront of the head of the cartridge (not sure if I would consider them to be "bright" or not). Since I have not seen a picture showing what I should be looking for I am not sure if this is a warning sign of cartridge head seperaton or if it is something normal. These rings I am seeing would they be a sign of impending sepeartion on once fired cases or is it something else?

February 24, 2007, 11:56 AM	#5
Windwalker Member Join Date: December 26, 2006 Location: Utah, dead center Posts: 19	I can't say that I've ever seen one of my pistol cases seperate at the head, but I don't shoot any mag pistols. If my pistol cases go bad they split or crack along the body or mouth. For me head seperation happens in my rifle cases, seldom but it does happen. I don't load hot unless I'm messing around with my T/C 357 Herrett. That's where I tend to get into trouble, but I do have a lot of fun. __________________ "Life sucks when making a living gets in the way of living."

February 24, 2007, 06:12 PM	#8
HiltonFarmer Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2006 Location: Western Canada Posts: 324	Do you have a picture? It may help some in identifying whether or not this is (or should be) a concern for you. IMO, if you have only fired them once, and they were factory loads, I wouldn't be too concerned about them. HiltonFarmer __________________ I wish gun control could go away. That way I could buy anything I wanted. _______________________________________ Keep the muzzle pointed down range please!

February 25, 2007, 02:51 AM	#10
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	The sizing die can leave a mark at the head/body junction sometimes. If you are worried about case head separation a simple check can be used. Form a tiny, pointed hook from a paper clip or other tiny metal object that can be inserted into the case and scraped from the head to the neck. If you feel the clip catch in a groove where you see the ring-- discard the case and back off the powder charge. If the case is a straight walled pistol type, it is unlikely that you have separation. If it is a rifle case, that has not been loaded at or near max capacity using appropriate powders, less than 5 times or so, again it is unlikely to be separation. When you get an old rifle case that is beginning to separate, you'll then know the difference between that and a die mark. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal

February 23, 2007, 12:35 AM	#2
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	The ring you are seeing is simply where the soild head of the case meets the hollow body of the case. The chamber of your gun is bigger than the cartridge so this area expands, but the head does not because it is solid. Thus, you see this ring. Now when you resize, the body will get squeezed back down flush with the head of the case. Do this over and over and it creates a weak spot. Kind of like bending a paper clip too many times.

February 24, 2007, 10:42 AM	#4
newguy07 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2007 Posts: 134	So in other words this shouldnt be a sign of anything to worry about? Cases are still good to reload?

February 24, 2007, 02:36 PM	#6
Trapper L Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2006 Location: South Texas Posts: 804	Considering that the 38 Special headspaces on the thickness of the rim, I would resize the brass and give it another look. Usually, if the brass does come apart on a straight wall case, it comes apart about 1/8" ahead of the rim. I have never damaged a gun having them come apart but please use best judgement here. Normally there are no rings on a 38 round. Might also want to have the gun checked if it has cylinders that are a tad large or the cylinder needs shimming to the action or even the crane is out of alignment. Sometimes it's better to have things checked by a smitty than to take a chance.

February 24, 2007, 03:38 PM	#7
newguy07 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2007 Posts: 134	Well the gun is a brand new ruger gp141. Dont think there are any problems there

February 24, 2007, 11:08 PM	#9
mrawesome22 Senior Member Join Date: November 9, 2005 Location: Ohio, Appalachia's foothills. Posts: 3,779	This is onced fired brass. You don't have to start worrying about head separation until around the 5th loading. With a straight walled revolver brass, the neck will probably split while seating a bullet long before a head separation will occur.

February 25, 2007, 10:13 AM	#11
newguy07 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2007 Posts: 134	Well they havent been through the die yet. These have been once shot factory ammo.

February 25, 2007, 04:10 PM	#12
ShootingNut Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,475	I have seen the same thing recently with once fired factory loads. Is the "ring" sort of a copper color just above the head? That's what I have seen, and not all fired from the same box had this show up?

February 25, 2007, 06:24 PM	#13
newguy07 Senior Member Join Date: February 8, 2007 Posts: 134	sounds about right.