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Old October 10, 2022, 07:40 PM   #1
Deja vu
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Odd experience at a training

Just finished a local self defense single day pistol training. It was a small class of 7 people. My self and my brother both attended the class. There was a main trainer and he had an assistant.

Before attending the class I looked up what guns are appropriate for the class. The rules basically said no rimfire and no Single action revolvers. So I brought my S&W 627 (8 shot revolver) and a few speed loaders and some rounds pre-loaded into moon clips.

When we get to the training I am not surprised to mostly see double stack striker fire pistols and only my self with a revolver. Long story short, after a couple hours I was no longer allowed to use the speed loaders or my moon clips and had to load the rounds by hand (for the last 90 min) while every body else still got to use magazines.

After words I stayed late to ask what the reasoning behind it was and the trainer would not give me an answer and just walked away. His assistant did talk to me and told me that I did pretty well and was better with my speed loaders (before the teacher banned them) than many students where with the magazines. I was a little upset but feel that I kept it to my self pretty well.

Any way it’s still bothering me a little. What could the reason for the trainer doing this be? Is it possible that he was trying to help me and I just took it the wrong way? I want to believe that!

Sorry for the rant!
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Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...
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Old October 10, 2022, 07:54 PM   #2
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If you paid money for the class you deserve a straight answer. I can't imagine a good reason to say you can't use a speed loader or moon clips. If he has a good answer you should hear it or get a refund.

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Old October 10, 2022, 08:17 PM   #3
Deja vu
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Yes it did cost (though my brother paid for it). I’ll see if I can find contact information and compose an email. I don’t really like to rock the boat but this seems pretty out of line to me.
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Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...
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Old October 10, 2022, 09:02 PM   #4
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I think the boat needs to be rocked. You did nothing wrong, and the information put out before the class did NOT prohibit DA revolvers with speed loaders. IMHO the instructor was wrong to not allow you to use the speed loaders, and he was wrong again for refusing to give you an explanation.
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Old October 10, 2022, 09:40 PM   #5
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I think only one person can answer this, and my guess is he’s not here.


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Old October 11, 2022, 12:15 AM   #6
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That's idiotic. You carry speedloaders/moon clips while you are carrying your revolver, correct? Then it would be perfectly acceptable to use them in a defensive use class. If you were using something clearly never intended for use on the street, like a competition holster, or something like that, I can see them saying, whoa, no, not going to do that. But when I carried a round gun, I always had at least one speedloader with me.
I'd ask for a refund - I wonder what else the "trainer" got wrong out of some personal bias?
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Old October 11, 2022, 12:38 AM   #7
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Unless you were holding up the class loading/unloading clips, I see no good reason for such a prohibition.

If they don't want people using revolvers, that should be stated clearly in the information provided for folks wanting to sign up. Since it was not, I would say that unless you were holding up class in some way, what happened was totally unacceptable.

I think it would be good to provide the class information for folks who might want to take a class and would use a revolver. That's clearly not the class for them.
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Old October 11, 2022, 06:46 AM   #8
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The last two times I have had to shoot a qualifying for a License to Carry I used my Detective Special with a pair of speed strips and a couple HKS DS speed loaders. Even then the last couple segments I had to hand load.

But I will admit I am always shocked when I learn someone can't drive a manual shift car.

Now that is truly deplorable.
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Old October 11, 2022, 07:51 AM   #9
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The only thing I can think of is that if the instructor isn't a revolver guy, and the class is a "combat" or "tactical" training class, maybe he sees speed loaders and moonclips as competition and range accessories. If he doesn't realize that a lot of people who carry a revolver or use one for home defense also carry speed loaders and/or moonclips, he might not see them as appropriate for a defense oriented class. How old was the trainer? If he was a younger guy*, he may not be that well versed on revolvers and might have seen anything but loading the rounds individually as cheating in the context of the class.

*In this context, "younger" is pretty broad. I remember (not that long ago, well, OK fine...) when I was a rare "younger guy" who was very into revolvers as they were mostly for the "older" guys. Um, I'm now 52 years old. So, other than those who like a J-frame (and probably for niche roles more than everyday carry) and the rare exception, I suspect that most "revolver guys," even the younger ones, are probably getting into their upper 50s and 60s at this point.
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Old October 11, 2022, 11:22 AM   #10
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That sucks. I would like to know how this works out
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Old October 11, 2022, 12:42 PM   #11
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I don't teach non law enforcement but if I did I wouldn't allow revolvers in my class. My reason is simple, while I can run a revolver pretty good they aren't where my expertise lies and they wouldn't fit into the curriculum.

I do believe any good instructor would give you his reason for not allowing them, or for prohibiting certain accessories like speed loaders though. If it wasn't stated up front the student should be allowed to proceed with what he brought unless there is a safety concern and it would be crazy for an instructor to keep the student in the dark about a safety issue.
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Old October 11, 2022, 06:02 PM   #12
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Ive been a professional firearms/tactics trainer since the mid 90’s. I started with a Smith revolver (M64). In my current classes i LOVE to see a revolver shooter. I teach how to properly re-load using speed loaders AND speed strips.

If thats the choice of firearms a student makes…i’ll do my best to show him how to run it well
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Old October 11, 2022, 08:21 PM   #13
Jim Watson
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These fako classes and instructors abound.

Jeff Cooper ran into the same thing in reverse.
He went to a major agency academy with his 1911 and was told that he must only use one magazine and loose ammo. Obviously did not want him to show up the issue revolvers and their users.
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Old October 13, 2022, 12:52 AM   #14
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Email sent. Waiting for a response.
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Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...
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Old October 13, 2022, 07:20 AM   #15
jar
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I'm curious about what part of the curriculum is not appropriate for a revolver?

If there is some part of the curriculum that precludes a revolver isn't it time to fix the curriculum and also the instructor training?
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Old October 13, 2022, 08:54 AM   #16
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"[A]fter a couple hours I was no longer allowed to use the speed loaders or my moon clips and had to load the rounds by hand (for the last 90 min) while every body else still got to use magazines."

Why did you comply with such an absurd and unreasonable request? The time to demand an explanation was when the request was made. No explanation or poor explanation: ignore the request.
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Old October 13, 2022, 09:49 AM   #17
Deja vu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Limnophile View Post
"[A]fter a couple hours I was no longer allowed to use the speed loaders or my moon clips and had to load the rounds by hand (for the last 90 min) while every body else still got to use magazines."

Why did you comply with such an absurd and unreasonable request? The time to demand an explanation was when the request was made. No explanation or poor explanation: ignore the request.
He seemed more trained in the tactical sense than me so I thought there was a reason. (I have done a little competitive shooting in the past but I’m not what I would consider good at it) Infact I was mostly okay with it in the moment. It wasn’t until after words when I stayed late to ask why that I got an more of an odd feeling about it (because he did not answer and walked away).

At the time I thought of it as a “what would I do if I had a speed loader failure drill.
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Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...
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Old October 13, 2022, 10:45 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja vu View Post
At the time I thought of it as a “what would I do if I had a speed loader failure drill.
Were there any drills about lost magazines? Magazines that wouldn't seat/feed?
That would be somewhat similar to speed loader failure.

I'd be interested in seeing the drill where you have to repeatedly load a semi one-round at a time like revolver with loose ammo. Especially with the pistols that have magazine disconnects if the mag won't seat properly.
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Old October 13, 2022, 11:11 AM   #19
Deja vu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballardw View Post
Were there any drills about lost magazines? Magazines that wouldn't seat/feed?
That would be somewhat similar to speed loader failure.

I'd be interested in seeing the drill where you have to repeatedly load a semi one-round at a time like revolver with loose ammo. Especially with the pistols that have magazine disconnects if the mag won't seat properly.
They had a drill where the magazines malfunctioned but the answer was to change magazines not load it one by one (actually 2 by 2 in my case).
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Shot placement is everything! I would rather take a round of 50BMG to the foot than a 22short to the base of the skull.

all 26 of my guns are 45/70 govt, 357 mag, 22 or 12 ga... I believe in keeping it simple. Wish my wife did as well...
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Old October 13, 2022, 11:27 AM   #20
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If he couldn’t or wouldn’t answer you in person I would personally be surprised if he did respond to the email. I get that to an extent you’re trying to be fair and see if it’s something you missed, but in all the instructors I have had (in just shy of 40 or so defensive firearm courses) I can’t think of one course where an honest, “Why?”, was flat out ignored, assuming there wasn’t something immediately pressing going on (a drill the instructor needed to finish or students that needed supervision). I try and look at everything, especially bad experiences, as, “What can I learn from this?” It may be your takeaway from all of this is that this instructor is not a good choice for you given your desire to use revolvers.


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Old October 13, 2022, 04:57 PM   #21
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Any firearms instructor, or any teacher of anything at all for that matter, should be able to explain to students the why behind what they are being asked to do. They should also be open to the idea that a student might be able to teach them a new way they've never considered before as well.
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Old October 15, 2022, 04:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkbite View Post
Ive been a professional firearms/tactics trainer since the mid 90’s. I started with a Smith revolver (M64). In my current classes i LOVE to see a revolver shooter. I teach how to properly re-load using speed loaders AND speed strips.

If thats the choice of firearms a student makes…i’ll do my best to show him how to run it well
Nice.
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Old October 15, 2022, 04:18 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnKSa View Post
Unless you were holding up the class loading/unloading clips, I see no good reason for such a prohibition.

If they don't want people using revolvers, that should be stated clearly in the information provided for folks wanting to sign up. Since it was not, I would say that unless you were holding up class in some way, what happened was totally unacceptable.

I think it would be good to provide the class information for folks who might want to take a class and would use a revolver. That's clearly not the class for them.
This.^^

If someone designed a class that favors pistols/magazines, then it would be courteous to state it to prospective students.

Maybe the instructor was never trained and experienced with using DA or DAO revolvers, and was uncomfortable trying to adjust his teaching methods to accommodate them?

Most LE firearms instructors from the time period when revolvers were being phased out in favor of hi-cap pistols were generally versed in designing courses-of-fire, at least for off-duty quals, where scoring and reloading were easily adjusted for the revolver users. No biggie.

Now that smaller single-stack pistols have become much more popular (again ), and snub revolvers have been making quite a comeback (stimulating gun makers to take advantage of that growing market ), you'd think that the savvy commercial instructors would be looking for ways to encourage and benefit from those folks who wish to carry small pistols and/or DA/DAO revolvers. It's not like it's all that hard to include some flexibility in courses-of-fire that can accommodate such folks.

Perhaps next time, maybe ask if your choice of gun/gear is going to be considered appropriate for the training venue? While you'd hope the instructor(s) would list any requirements and prohibited gear, it might be prudent to avoid assuming things. if nothing else, it can help prevent frustrating circumstances for both instructors and students.
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Old October 15, 2022, 05:36 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastbolt
Perhaps next time, maybe ask if your choice of gun/gear is going to be considered appropriate for the training venue? While you'd hope the instructor(s) would list any requirements and prohibited gear, it might be prudent to avoid assuming things. if nothing else, it can help prevent frustrating circumstances for both instructors and students.
I think looking up the course requirements is all the due diligence that should be expected. Since Deja vu specifically looked up what the equipment requirements were, I don't think he was "assuming" anything. The instructor went to the trouble of stating no rimfire and no single action revolvers. To anyone who speaks English, that means double action revolvers are allowed. Nothing said about NOT using speed loaders. Since speedloaders are commonplace for tactical use of revolvers, I don't think Deja vu was "assuming" when he brought his revolver and speedloaders.

The instructor was, IMHO, 100% at fault here. I am inclined to agree that the instructor probably doesn't know how to train for revolvers, and he was very possibly upset that a guy withy a revolver was making the students with semi-autos look bad, so his solution (in the best tradition of teaching to the lowest common denominator) was to handicap the guy with the revolver rather than use that as a way of challenging the semi-auto shooters to up their game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja vu
Before attending the class I looked up what guns are appropriate for the class. The rules basically said no rimfire and no Single action revolvers. So I brought my S&W 627 (8 shot revolver) and a few speed loaders and some rounds pre-loaded into moon clips.
I would avoid that instructor from now on.
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Old October 16, 2022, 12:02 PM   #25
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I don't disagree the instructor is at fault for either not being clear when the class requirements were listed, or in making a stupid decision because a student using a revolver might be making other students 'feel uncomfortable' because of the comparative performance 'gap'.

However, even LE training units have occasionally learned the hard way that sometimes the posted class curriculum and requirements involved for outside training might not contain all critical information necessary. Sometimes a phone call (or email) has resulted in getting some helpful additional info ... which ought to have been included in the class info from the get go.

As far as a revolver shooter making some other students feel less capable? That was a great opportunity for the instructor to use as a teaching moment. Gear can only take you so far, and then its the gear user that becomes critical.
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