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Old October 12, 2022, 10:27 PM   #76
wild cat mccane
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When I sort on highest expansion for 45, I get penetration less than most 9mm.

When I look at HST, I see 9mm goes deeper than 45 and is pretty much the same size.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...c-tests/#45ACP

Maybe I'm missing something, cause 150gr HST 9mm "Micro" at less than 900fps seems to best most 357 loads.

Even if I am totally wrong by any example, all Gold Dot, HST, Ranger, Golden Saber 9mm falls into the "perfect" spots while best lots of 45 other loads.

Luckygunner test can be flawed, but it would be reliably flawed to all calibers.
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Old October 13, 2022, 05:58 AM   #77
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Imho 9, 40, and 45 are all equal given modern bullets designed. If we are talking ball ammo thats a different story. But all 3 cartridges and a few in-between get the job done well. I lean towards 9mm due to the price, increased capacity, and faster follow up shots due to the milder recoil.
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Old October 13, 2022, 12:16 PM   #78
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I never had a .40, having 9mms, .45s even .357s and some others, I could never see the point to a .40.

Since I began reloading before factory JHP ammo was common, the cost difference between factory loaded 9mm and .45acp has never been anything important to me, either.

yes, the .45 does cost even the handloader a bit more than the 9mm, because, well, its BIGGER....
There's no free lunch...

Nor have I ever noticed any milder recoil from the 9mm. Since both rounds produce about the same amount of energy, physics says they are the same (Newton's 3rd law) but people FEEL it differently in different guns. To ME, in guns of similar size and weight, the recoil feels about the same. The muzzle jumps the same amount in MY hands. The 9mm feels like it does it faster, but the amount of movement is the same, for ME.

The .45acp isn't "dead", isn't even dying, certainly will be "alive" longer than I will be. People claiming otherwise are looking at things through a warped lens of their own creation and desires, which distorts reality.
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Old October 13, 2022, 12:26 PM   #79
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I've cut back to owning five .45ACP handguns; and I can still find and afford the ammo to buy, so I'm good. I did have more .45ACP guns at one time, however. Now I've got more 9mm handguns and .38/.357 revolvers than .45 pistols.
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Old October 13, 2022, 01:11 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post

Nor have I ever noticed any milder recoil from the 9mm. Since both rounds produce about the same amount of energy, physics says they are the same (Newton's 3rd law) but people FEEL it differently in different guns.
You're confusing muzzle energy with recoil force. They are calculated with different formulas.

The 9mm Luger has a little over 1/2 the recoil in the same weight gun as a 45 Auto.

RECOIL:

9mm: 124 grain at 1150 fps, 6 gr powder, in a 2.50 lb gun = 2.97 ft lbs recoil

45 Auto: 230 grain at 850 fps, 6 gr powder, in a 2.50 lb gun = 5.24 ft lbs recoil
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Old October 13, 2022, 02:02 PM   #81
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My primary cary gun is aColt Combat Commander, the all steel version * round magazine and one up the spout. Two 10 round magazines for reload purposes. The Federal 230 gr. Hydra-shoks work for me.

I have an S&W M60 .38 Spl. in my pants pocket as a back up piece should the 1911 fail. I doubt it ever will.Ammo for the .38 is 125 gr, Plus P Federal hollow points with two speed loaders.

I do have a couple of 9MMs but with a 15+1 mag it weighs more than my Commander of my full size 1911. The other has a 12+1 magazine and weighs about the same as the full size 1911. Its only advantage is the larger magazine capacity.

Besides, I shoot the 1911 style better than the double action 9MMs.
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Old October 13, 2022, 05:55 PM   #82
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Quote:
RECOIL:

9mm: 124 grain at 1150 fps, 6 gr powder, in a 2.50 lb gun = 2.97 ft lbs recoil

45 Auto: 230 grain at 850 fps, 6 gr powder, in a 2.50 lb gun = 5.24 ft lbs recoil
Not sure what formula you are using, doesn't matter to me, sometimes "advanced" math boggles my mind. Seems to me the energy out the front has to be the energy out the back, as well, but then I've seen a formula that says a guy who swims from one end of pool to the other, then swims back to where he started, actually went nowhere.

Now if you have an explanation for how 2.97 feels the same to me as 5.24 I'd be interested in hearing it.
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Old October 13, 2022, 06:38 PM   #83
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Gee, I didn't mean to stir quite this "storm". I was just reflecting on the cold-shoulder my table pieces were given. Now as to the 45 vs 9mm. To me they are the same, but different. A 9mm is like smacking a snare drum while the 45 is more like thumping a base drum. Both are LOUD but one is sharp and quick the other heavy and pushing. As for me, I'll take the 45 except when covert is required. Then a Keltec P-3AT works just fine. Time to close the thread?
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Old October 13, 2022, 06:40 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Not sure what formula you are using, doesn't matter to me, sometimes "advanced" math boggles my mind. Seems to me the energy out the front has to be the energy out the back, as well, but then I've seen a formula that says a guy who swims from one end of pool to the other, then swims back to where he started, actually went nowhere.
The formula for recoil can be found in several places.

SAAMI: https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...018-07-9-1.pdf

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recoil

It requires the weight of the bullet, its speed, the weight of the gun and the weight of the powder charge.

You can confirm these numbers by using a recoil calculator found here:

http://kwk.us/recoil.html
or:
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmrecoil-5.1.cgi



The formula for muzzle energy (kinetic energy): = 1/2 m v2.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy

All that's required is the weight of the bullet and its speed.

a M.E. calculator is here:

https://calculator.academy/muzzle-energy-calculator/


Quote:
Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post

Now if you have an explanation for how 2.97 feels the same to me as 5.24 I'd be interested in hearing it.
Not my problem.
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Old October 13, 2022, 09:16 PM   #85
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Since both rounds produce about the same amount of energy, physics says they are the same (Newton's 3rd law)
That is not what Newton's third law says. If the two rounds produce about the same amount of energy, physics says they produce about the same amount of energy. That's it. It doesn't say that the recoil generated by the two rounds will be the same.
Quote:
Seems to me the energy out the front has to be the energy out the back, as well, but then I've seen a formula that says a guy who swims from one end of pool to the other, then swims back to where he started, actually went nowhere.
Recoil is a function of momentum, not energy. Comparing energy does not provide useful insight into comparison of recoil.

The formula you are talking about with the swimming pool is probably the formula for "work". It does not say that the swimmer went nowhere, it says that the "net" work done by the swimmer in returning to the original point is zero. That is because the net work done is a function of net displacement and if the object in question returns to the original location, the net displacement is zero. It has no bearing on this particular discussion, for whatever that's worth.
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Old October 14, 2022, 10:35 AM   #86
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We (including me) argued the benefits of 9mm and 45.

The question is 45 going to go away.

I think yes, much like 40 is not gone away, but less offerings and very targeted applications.

40 has a place in power level for competition. If anyone stops carrying about that, 40 is in real trouble.

45 holds a place in the old man's heart. Demographics are a cliff for the gun buyer in general, but the 45 in a 1911, I think even more so. I would just guess that my millennial cohort has less than 50% of the interest in the boomer population for a 1911.

Not YOU specifically. But the general buyer market? Yes.

I bet the the small framed P365 comes out of this like crazy.
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Old October 15, 2022, 11:05 AM   #87
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My primary cary gun is a M&P 45 mid-size, with two 10 round magazine and one up the spout. The Ammo Incorporated 230 gr. hollow points work for me at this time... nothing else was available when I purchased this ammo.
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Old October 16, 2022, 05:59 PM   #88
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John Moses Browning's .45 ACP was dead, to begin with. There is no doubt whatever about that. The register of its burial was signed by the clergyman, the clerk, the undertaker, and the chief mourner. PolarFBear signed it. And PolarFBear's name was good upon ‘Change for anything he chose to put his hand to. The .45 ACP was as dead as a doornail.
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Old October 16, 2022, 09:19 PM   #89
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@Mike Irwin: You are correct, as always. Jacob Marley and Ebeneezer Scrooge both had .455 Webleys. (If someone missed Mike's allusion, then they should go back and re-read "A Christmas Carol", by Charles Dickens. It's getting to be that time of year.)

"Wild cat mccane" makes a good point about a generation gap and the .45 ACP. I'm a senior citizen and at the point of needing to whittle things down. I will probably end up with just .45 ACP's and .38 Specials. You can't get more old school than that.
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Old October 17, 2022, 07:21 AM   #90
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Want to see the .45 come absolutely roaring back to life?

Let a magazine capacity law pass at the Federal level.

In the 1990s the .45 had been driven to near irrelevance by the Wonder9 crush that had started in the 1970s.

The 1996 "assault weapons ban" gave the .45 and its platforms a huge boost.
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Old October 17, 2022, 09:32 AM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Irwin View Post
Want to see the .45 come absolutely roaring back to life?

Let a magazine capacity law pass at the Federal level.
Per NYSRPA, a constitutional amendment is needed to make such a ban lawful. Won't happen.

The military learned in the 20th century that when it comes to winning a battle, firepower über alles. The armed citizen can't begin to bring military-type firepower to bear for reasons of cost and logistics, but the double-stack pistol is usually the superior choice of a carry piece than is its single-stack counterpart or any revolver. Doubts? Run the numbers yourself:

https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial
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Old October 17, 2022, 10:10 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Limnophile View Post
Doubts? Run the numbers yourself:

https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial

Binomial probabilities, such as that calculator, only apply when all the events have the same probability. I doubt that actually applies in real world shooting. Target range yes, moving shooter/target combinations not so much.

It also requires independence, as in the effect of the previous trial(s) have no effect on later. Since shooting in a defense role should mean "I stop when the threat no longer exists" everything after that is extremely dependent on what happened previous.
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Old October 17, 2022, 10:24 AM   #93
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"Per NYSRPA, a constitutional amendment is needed to make such a ban lawful. Won't happen."

Did NYSRPA miss the magazine capacity ban that was enacted as part of the 1994 assault weapons bill and was in place for a decade?

I don't recall a Constitutional amendment being passed at that time, or a second Constitutional amendment being passed to nullify the first one...
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Old October 18, 2022, 11:40 AM   #94
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What is the idiotic capacity ban that went into effect with the NY "SAFE" act a few years ago...8?? 7? not sure. What I heard was that they'll let you keep 10rnd mags, but you break the law if you load them up to capacity.

Show me the superiority of a double stack (any caliber) when its against the law to own one....

The 94 AWB magazine limits did have an effect on handgun sales. It boosted the sale of (and the creation for sale of) "compact" models of several double stack pistols.

There is, literallay no point buying a gun that holds 13-15-17 or more if the LAW says you can only have 10 (or even less?)

So, consider this, the law, which had the stated intent of making us "safer" by restricting certain guns and ammo capacity, actually CREATED a demand for smaller, more easily concealed pistols!

As to the .45ACP being "dead", I believe that happened "officially" about 1984 when it was replaced as the primary US service pistol round by the military.

That's as dead as it gets. SO, we have a few million "undead" out there, with more being made and sold every year.

Claiming a caliber is dead because YOUR pistols in that caliber didn't sell at a gunshow is like claiming chocolate is dead because your plate of chocolate chip cookies didn't sell at the bake sale.
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Old October 19, 2022, 10:14 AM   #95
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Thinking 45 will come back if their were some magical 10 cap isn't acknowledging HST/Ranger/Gold Dot are doing just fine in 9mm.

Unlikely someone picked a P365 because it comes 10 rnds only or there is a law about mag size...if that makes sense. The P365 is the #1 seller because it is what it is.
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Old October 19, 2022, 11:10 AM   #96
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I personally know people in “ban states” that went with cartridges other than 9mm because they were of the opinion that without the added capacity of 9mm they were better off going with a different cartridge. Personally, absent a full-sized pistol or compact pistol being restricted to 10 rd, a number of the pistols I own would still hold more rounds of 9mm than 40SW because of the size of some of those pistols. There would still be a capacity difference, but less so. More so, to me there are advantages of 9mm other than capacity.

I wouldn’t personally switch cartridges if I suddenly faced magazine restrictions, but as I said I know others that did. Hopefully that isn’t a choice I have to face. The 45ACP pistols I own because I like them and I like having a different cartridge, not because they might be the most “efficient” pistol to carry by someone’s measure.


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Old October 19, 2022, 01:32 PM   #97
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45acp Dead... not hardly.

20 + years in law enforcement carried both 10mm & 45acp. Never felt undergunned with either round, no matter what platform i was carrying. 1911 in 45acp is great ccw platform, esp in commander models. Goverment works to just find the right holster. thanks 12-34hom
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Old October 19, 2022, 02:33 PM   #98
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Quote:
Thinking 45 will come back if their were some magical 10 cap isn't acknowledging HST/Ranger/Gold Dot are doing just fine in 9mm.

Unlikely someone picked a P365 because it comes 10 rnds only or there is a law about mag size...if that makes sense. The P365 is the #1 seller because it is what it is.
And while I have several P365s, couple of P7s, Glocks, etc; I did buy a new to me S.A. TRP Operator just because 45ACP is easy to load and fun to shoot.
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Old October 24, 2022, 06:26 AM   #99
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The .45 is alive and well in my world: I ordered my .45 from Colt back in 1980, and I still have it.

I love the .45 ACP myself. And the companies that make a 1911 just keep growing, there are at least a dozen major companies making those in a .45 auto caliber.

PS: I won’t give a .380 ACP a second look myself.

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Old October 28, 2022, 09:49 AM   #100
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Well, it's been a month. I think I can consolidate all the answers to this inquiry; is the .45 acp dying? NO. But the fans of the 45 are. I used the 45 from 1970 until 1985 in USN when the Beretta replaced our rattle-traps. We are now into the second 9mm replacement for the 1911. Youngsters have never had the opportunity to feel the "thump and push" of a 45. All they know is the "bang and slam" of the 9mm; pity. I will display at a show again this weekend and will pay closer attention to the ages of the lookers. Update on Monday.
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