The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Skunkworks > The Smithy

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 29, 2022, 08:21 PM   #1
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,622
So you call yourself a gunsmith

I never looked down my nose on some of the Muslim gunsmiths. Their safety practices yes, but skill level no.

https://youtu.be/OPjrP_dQlms

More mom 'n pop factories and stores:
https://youtu.be/MC1Z2-ITNtc

Arms Market:
https://youtu.be/w4895bG4hNk
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old August 30, 2022, 04:18 PM   #2
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 15,144
Yes, their skills have been talked about for over a century. I've seen a couple of "made from scratch" Lugers that were hard to tell from the real deal, but since Arabic and Roman characters are nowhere near similar, the markings get a little funny looking. But they work and fire, and in a culture where ANY gun is a handy thing to have, these craftsmen really do stand out.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Scorch is offline  
Old August 30, 2022, 05:29 PM   #3
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,622
We were anal about drilling holes at Trinidad State. If you drilled the hole in the wrong spot, it could affect the function of the part or how it interacts with other parts. Factories used jigs to do this (and there is a picture of the Griffin & Howe jig used to make the M-1C in the new sniper book). I want to see how those Pakistanis did that w/out a jig.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old August 30, 2022, 06:28 PM   #4
Scorch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2006
Location: Washington state
Posts: 15,144
I didn't say they were building sniper rifles, I said they work and fire.
__________________
Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs.
But what do I know?
Summit Arms Services
Scorch is offline  
Old August 30, 2022, 10:10 PM   #5
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,622
Wasn't arguing. It's amazing what they do with what they have. It would be nice to bring one over to do demonstrations. It could be a combination of cutlural anthropology and fabrication.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old August 31, 2022, 05:34 AM   #6
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,360
Upon his return from China in 1946

Not disagreeing with anything said in the post, just my two cents.

My father (still with us and still active at 97) brought home a knock off of a Smith and Wesson revolver.

He traded a pack of cigarettes for it in Lu Liang China in late 1945.

The fit and finish are good with bluing still fairly good 75 years later. The pistol, including the S&W emblem, on both of the grips looks fairly close to the real thing.

The internal components of the pistol were made from soft metal and the pistol is very loose and unshootable. It may have been unshootable when he first acquired it.

Imprint on either side of the barrel make use of non-English characters.

I have no knowledge of the actual origin of the pistol, but my sense is that it was made in China rather than in a Muslim shop.

Dunno.

Tnx,

Doc
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 31, 2022, 09:12 AM   #7
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,622
Is it still in the family Doc Hoy and can you post pictures of it?

I'm not surprised it's of soft steel. What is heat treatment and with insufficient steel factories, they used what they could get. I'm thinking salvaged RR tracks.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old August 31, 2022, 11:02 AM   #8
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,360
Yes and Yes

Here are some photos of the pistol.

Left side and right side with a photo of the S&W grip badge. Worn but you can tell that the maker was trying to be thorough.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg CHinese revolver f.jpg (351.1 KB, 84 views)
File Type: jpg Chinese revolver g .jpg (415.9 KB, 70 views)
File Type: jpg Chinese revoler b.jpg (510.7 KB, 64 views)
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 31, 2022, 11:08 AM   #9
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,360
More photos

The other grip badge. Some marking on the barrel. Note that the type face on the barrel is not English. Not being a language expert I cannot recognize it. I do not believe it is Russian.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Chinese revolver a.jpg (500.2 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg Chinese revolver c.jpg (433.8 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg Chinese revolver d.jpg (651.7 KB, 44 views)
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 31, 2022, 11:09 AM   #10
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,360
Final shot

Characters on the grips.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Chinese revolver e.jpg (498.4 KB, 49 views)
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old August 31, 2022, 11:40 AM   #11
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 8,657
There is a village ???

Gary,
I wish I could remember more details but a number of years ago, there was a special on TV about a town/village over there, whose "entire" economy is based on making firearms and it didn't stop with rifles and handguns. They even made anti-aircraft machine guns and some artillery. Yes, all from scratch as shown in your videos. It was amazing and I wish I could remember the name of the town. I think it was in Afghanistan. .......

Be Safe !!!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is offline  
Old August 31, 2022, 12:34 PM   #12
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,622
Thanks Doc Hoy. I think the lettering is illteracy in action. The Chinese don't know the western alphabet. Hey, good enough for government work!

Pahoo - I found this one interesting. They show the heat treatment and it's the old fashioned case hardening with charcoal and leather. Hot salt bluing is shown. The videographer pans way too fast for my liking.

https://youtu.be/J-f7j-RlN_Q

I'd like to see how they do their stampings (M-3, MP-44, AK receivers and magazines).
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old August 31, 2022, 01:13 PM   #13
Geezerbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2011
Location: Willamina, OR
Posts: 1,900
I was wondering about the heat treating. However I doubt they are using very good steel judging from the poor quality of Pakistani knives I've had.

It's still amazing what they make with such crude tooling...

Tony
Geezerbiker is offline  
Old August 31, 2022, 02:14 PM   #14
MoscowMike
Member
 
Join Date: November 14, 2008
Posts: 56
Doc Hoy, when you mentioned a Chinese copy of a revolver, I thought of Ian McCollum’s videos and book on the great variety of essentially hand-made Chinese pistols from the 20s and 30s.

Here’s a video from a few years ago -

https://test.forgottenweapons.com/a-...istols-at-ria/

Here's the book he wrote. It’s out of my price range but I would love to look through a copy.

https://www.headstamppublishing.com/chinese-pistols

Ian says that some were made in government arsenals and reasonably good quality, but the majority were built in small workshops with no attempt at parts interchangeability or heat treating. The lettering is fun.
MoscowMike is offline  
Old August 31, 2022, 10:19 PM   #15
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,360
Gary and Mike

Thanks. I'll watch that video when I get a chance. Schedule has really filled up lately.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old September 1, 2022, 11:08 AM   #16
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,360
Had the opportunity to view that video

Very enlightening. It is a compelling explanation for the markings on my revolver.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old September 2, 2022, 11:11 AM   #17
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 26,547
There are stories, going all the way back to the British occupation of the region and the building of railroads, telling of how the Pathan tribesmen (and others) would rip up the rails to use the steel to make guns and other things.

Some were crude, some were actually well crafted, amazingly so considering. Reproductions of many different types of firearms, including some complicated designs, (such as Lugers and DA revolvers,) and sometimes even down to recreating the proof marks.

OF course, the steel used and the heat treating is suspect, the guns were never proofed even if they have proof marks, but some of the workmanship is amazingly good. Particularly so considering most (all?) being done by hand without modern, powered machinery.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old September 2, 2022, 05:40 PM   #18
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,622
I wonder about things like headspacing and timing. I also wonder how they make coil springs (we did that on a lathe) for things like triggers such that the weight is correct for recoil mechanisms such that they function reliably? iI suspect they buy their spring wire as it's easier. Timing is important for selective fire mechanisms. Weight of metal and parts affect the timing too.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old September 2, 2022, 09:27 PM   #19
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 20,349
I remember when Lee first came out with their Classic Cast reloading press line, a photo of the casting foundry showed piles of train rail lengths in the background. Some things are more universal than we expect. I remember when my dad took a class on making muzzle loaders the springs were all flat springs of carbon steel that were forge-heated then quenched in oil, and then tempered by putting a match to the oil to burn it off.

"Where there's a will…"
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old September 2, 2022, 11:25 PM   #20
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,622
We used flat spring stock to make V-springs at school. We tempered them im a lead pot.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old September 4, 2022, 08:58 PM   #21
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,622
Taiwanese gun maker for the indigenous people

Skip to ten minutes to see Mr. Lin

Hose clamp to secure action to stock. Barrel welded onto the receiver. Pass.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Old September 5, 2022, 10:09 AM   #22
4V50 Gary
Staff
 
Join Date: November 2, 1998
Location: Colorado
Posts: 21,622
The Taiwanese made inline muzzle loaders in the above link are pretty bad. Between the Taiwanese and the Pakistanis is this American with his home made stuff which he started at age 14. All mild steel construction.

https://youtu.be/IOD_DgnSN8c

All good enough for buybacks.

One thing these videos share in common is it shows the futlity of gun control and how ingenious people are.
__________________
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. Molon Labe!
4V50 Gary is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11718 seconds with 9 queries