The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old June 23, 2021, 02:54 AM   #26
AlongCameJones
member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2021
Location: Lawton, OK
Posts: 203
One should never ever pretend to play Russian roulette on themselves with a genuine revolver even if they cleared the gun 10 times in a row immediately beforehand.

This is truly courting one's own death.

I also have had a bad habit of looking at a gun and admiring it in my hands while I KNOW the gun has ammo in it. I have recently resolved to break this habit for good.
AlongCameJones is offline  
Old June 24, 2021, 02:21 AM   #27
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
B&H Guns was originally the Glock Dealer on Merrit Island. Parking behind the store walked into a just happened N/G!
A Police Officer from a local Dept, with his Glock 19 in a belt holster, with a coat with a loose cord that held the bottom of the coat tight, somehow invaded the trigger guard BANG!
He produced a knife and totally removed this cord. Everybody looked shocked.
That smell of a fresh gun discharge told the story.
Brit is offline  
Old June 24, 2021, 05:45 AM   #28
Arcsylver
Junior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2021
Posts: 1
Well..... since this happened to me rather recently I will take the risk and share my tale of personal stupidity.

I was sitting in my living room and decided it was time to do my monthly cleaning of my carry gun. A sig P3230 that I carry off body in a shoulder bag with a kydex holster inside my shoulder bag. The holster is attached to the bag via hook and loop.

I carefully draw the pistol out of my bag and drop the mag, then, because I had just purchased some shiny new bright orange Chamber empty flags with chamber block, I deviated from my usual routine. I stopped the unload, rack slide, visually and physically inspect the chamber routine I always use. I instead stopped and fumbled around for that chamber flag then bad things (tm) happened.

What I usually do AFTER emptying the chamber and verifying it is pull the trigger to release the sear. Which has pretty much become muscle memory at this point. I interrupted the usual cycle and without thinking I pull the trigger. BANG. A 90gr. Underwood Xtreme Defender round discharges and rips though the sofa, into the wall and , thankfully, comes to rest somewhere inside the wall cavity.

After checking that neither myself or my spouse was injured I immediately call the local police to report the ND. Yes I reported my own ND to the cops.

The police arrive and find that my pistol is completely unloaded with the chamber flag in it sitting on my gun cleaning table in my "gun room" with all my misc. things in OCD level organization. I explain what happened etc etc. They go to the neighbors apartment that the wall that was hit belongs to to verify the round did not penetrate into the next apartment and that no-one was injured.

Thankfully the police wrote up the report but did NOT file any charges for the incident. That report is now framed and hanging on my wall in my gun room and is now a talisman reminder of following all safety protocols without distraction.

The lessons learned from this experience were many but I will sum them up as thus.

1. NEVER let yourself be distracted when handling a weapon regardless of if you "know" it isnt loaded.

2. Getting complacent in your safety process will eventually bite you in the butt and someone could pay dearly for your complacency.

3. Having a "safety bucket" when living in an apartment is a definite good idea. After this happened I bought a 5 gallon steel bucket and 50 pounds of sand and made myself a clearing bucket to add an extra level of "just in case I missed something" to my unloading and reloading procedures.


No-one is immune to ND's. Anyone who tells you they will never have one is either clueless or an accident waiting to happen. Always be safe with your guns and never treat them like toys or as an afterthought.
Arcsylver is offline  
Old June 25, 2021, 08:27 AM   #29
Logs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 26, 1999
Location: BLUEGRASS STATE KY USA
Posts: 1,773
My father and I were shooting an M1 Garand match at Camp Perry and his Garand had a Slam Fire when he released the action. Got a Zero which hurt is score, but no one was hurt. Scared the heck out of us. We were using Greek Ammo provided by the CMP folks so not sure what happened exactly. We have shot a bunch after that and it has not happened again.
__________________
NRA LIFE MEMBER
Logs is offline  
Old June 25, 2021, 11:28 AM   #30
Pahoo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2006
Location: IOWA
Posts: 8,655
Concentration !!!!

Quote:
I deviated from my usual routine.
These are the times when I come close to getting in potential trouble. It's the four basic safety rules that have saved me from getting into trouble, along with my daily prayers. .....

During our Hunter Safety, live fire periods, I help teach M/L's and do all the loading demos. While another instructor is explaining the loading steps and components I concentrate on loading, "Only". Sure enough, once in awhile I have to add some comments and those are the times, I can get my share of Dry-Ball. I take the opportunity to use this for as teaching moment. ....

One way or another, we have used little hints/routines, to keep us safe. One that I have used lately, is to say; "GUN", every time I touch one and it works..


Be Safe !!!
__________________
'Fundamental truths' are easy to recognize because they are verified daily through simple observation and thus, require no testing.
Pahoo is offline  
Old June 29, 2021, 12:03 PM   #31
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 1,028
I had a very big wake-up moment this weekend.

I recently set up a car holster, which is just a holster velcroe'd to the passenger seat. (I usually ride shotgun and the wife drives).

We pulled into the driveway and I was looking up some nonsense or other on my phone and went to retrieve my striker fired handgun while still looking at my phone.

Thankfully, for whatever the reason my focus suddenly switched COMPLETELY to the fact that my trigger finger was ON the trigger. No pressure applied, but there I was doing a very stupid thing.

No handling a gun while distracted <-- lesson received!
ghbucky is offline  
Old June 29, 2021, 12:16 PM   #32
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,739
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghbucky
We pulled into the driveway and I was looking up some nonsense or other on my phone and went to retrieve my striker fired handgun while still looking at my phone.

Thankfully, for whatever the reason my focus suddenly switched COMPLETELY to the fact that my trigger finger was ON the trigger. No pressure applied, but there I was doing a very stupid thing.

No handling a gun while distracted <-- lesson received!
There may be another lesson in there, too.

WHY did your finger automatically go on the trigger? In general, I submit that this falls under the category of muscle memory. If the body performs certain functions or operations in the same way repeatedly, eventually the body (muscle memory) learns the action and the action becomes automatic, or instinctive. In other words, habit.

Any other time when you draw or pick up a firearm, when does your finger go on the trigger? Is it possible that you have an ingrained habit of putting your finger on the trigger before you have the sights on the intended target?

I grew up in the days of the 1950s television westerns, and cop shows like Dragnet. Gun handling on television and in the movies when I was a youth was pretty terrible, so I "learned" from watching all those shows and movies that when you pick up a gun you put your finger on the trigger.

It took me a long time to train myself out of that when I was old enough to have my own firearms, and I recognized that what I had been doing was dangerous.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old June 29, 2021, 12:27 PM   #33
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 1,028
Quote:
WHY did your finger automatically go on the trigger? In general, I submit that this falls under the category of muscle memory. If the body performs certain functions or operations in the same way repeatedly, eventually the body (muscle memory) learns the action and the action becomes automatic, or instinctive. In other words, habit.

Any other time when you draw or pick up a firearm, when does your finger go on the trigger? Is it possible that you have an ingrained habit of putting your finger on the trigger before you have the sights on the intended target?
It is a very valid question, and one I've been pondering. I used to shoot a lot of steel, IDPA and whatever other type of match I could find, so I thought my draw stroke and indexed trigger finger were pretty ingrained.

I think that's why my focus so dramatically switched because what I was doing was ABNORMAL and not at all normal.

But, your question is a damn good one, and one I don't have an answer for.
ghbucky is offline  
Old June 29, 2021, 01:52 PM   #34
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,739
Possibly your mind has internalized one type of trigger discipline as being for competition, and another as being for real life?

Dunno. 'Tis a conundrum.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old June 29, 2021, 02:30 PM   #35
ghbucky
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2020
Posts: 1,028
Now that I think about it with a little more distance, I realized that I haven't actually practiced the draw and presentation in some time.

Looks like I need to bone up on my handgun handling.
ghbucky is offline  
Old June 29, 2021, 02:53 PM   #36
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,739
And there's an additional factor for those of us who carry pistols with external safeties: when do you disengage the safety?

I carry a 1911, and when I was competing I used a Para-Ordnance double stack 1911. I sweep the safety off as my presentation is at around halfway through the arc from vertical to horizontal (muzzle about 45 degrees to the ground). I've encountered people who disengage the safety before drawing or during the draw, while the gun is still in the holster.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old June 29, 2021, 11:51 PM   #37
Blue Duck
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 15, 2006
Posts: 397
Well, I will tell you, a much larger percentage of ND's happen to people who shoot and handle guns a lot, then most want to admit. I am not the first one who ever said that, but I agree, and I have know of several among seasoned (very seasoned and experienced shooters), but that still leaves plenty of room left for the rank amateur, to have one also.

Whatever other rules you follow, the main one is never let the muzzle cover something you are not willing to shoot. At least if you will follow that one rule, if and I might even say when, it might happen to you, it will not result in a tragic ending.
Blue Duck is offline  
Old June 30, 2021, 08:42 AM   #38
Brit
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 29, 2005
Location: Orlando FL
Posts: 1,934
I lived in an Apartment after my Divorce, a friend of mine dropped in for a coffee, and to get warm! 40F Below! A Toronto Police Officer. He liked my Walther PPK in .380.
Took it out of the safe, did not bother to unload it, just said "There's one in the pipe, remember?" He said "Sure" and put that round into the living room wall, double brick outside wall. I wrote his name next to the hole!
I patched the problem and painted over it, gone. Sold it to him later. No, I did not report it. That was a long time ago, he still has it.
He is retired now, still likes his firearms.
I sold him a BSA Bolt Action Rifle, he hunts each hunting season.
It looks like the day he bought it, even better. He added a scope.

Last edited by Brit; July 1, 2021 at 06:44 AM.
Brit is offline  
Old June 30, 2021, 10:29 PM   #39
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,460
How not to deal with hot brass...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq1NsABn5D0

The video is age restricted, you will have to sign in to youtube to watch it.

For those who don't want to watch the video, let's just say that no matter how much hot brass down your shirt hurts, you can make it worse with poor muzzle control and bad trigger finger discipline.

When you lose your concentration, it will be your training and ingrained habits that either kick in and save you, or fail, depending on your level of training/preparation.

This person survived, but it was a matter of inches.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old October 1, 2021, 05:33 PM   #40
stuckinthe60s
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 31, 2017
Location: Va., Ct., Mo..
Posts: 632
stuck firing pin on a semi auto cooked one off on me when it was racked. pointed down range. all was well.
__________________
Retired Military Aviation
Former Member Navy Shooting Team
Distinguished Pistol Shot,NRA Shotgun/Pistol Instructor
NSSA All American, Skeet/Trap Range Owner
stuckinthe60s is offline  
Old October 1, 2021, 06:39 PM   #41
Ed4032
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 13, 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 287
Put a 45-70 govt off in an apartment, negligent or accidental I was very lucky.
__________________
Gun control is like stopping drunk driving by making it harder for sober people to drive.
Ed4032 is offline  
Old October 2, 2021, 01:29 AM   #42
Lt.Nick
Member
 
Join Date: July 12, 2021
Posts: 21
I was tuning the trigger pull on a revolver. I got it set just right and put it back together. Loaded it since it was my carry gun. Awhile later I wanted to admire my work. Pulled the trigger on a live round. Front door had a big hole in it. I was embarrassed and never repeated the mistake.
Lt.Nick is offline  
Old October 2, 2021, 03:13 PM   #43
stinkeypete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2010
Location: Madison, Wisconsin
Posts: 1,185
I believe there is a mindset “curve”. Then people start new things, they are very cautious. Over time, they get complacent- this is the dangerous phase. Then they are involved in something that shakes them up and a new type of respect sets in.

I never went through that complacent stage, as I have seen many near-harmful accidents and never feel comfortable around loaded firearms. If one is in the pipe, I want the hammer down and safety latched. That’s just me, you do you.

There is a great family story about the big hole Grandad put in the asphalt highway unloading after a deer hunt. No one was hurt because he always controlled his muzzle, and such an accident surprised us all. He was Mr. Gun Safety. If it can happen to him, it can happen to anyone.
__________________
I hunt, shoot bullseye, plink, reload, and tinker with firearms. I have hung out with the Cowboy Action fellas. I have no interest in carrying firearms in urban areas.
stinkeypete is offline  
Old October 2, 2021, 03:18 PM   #44
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,739
All photos I have seen of my maternal great-grandfather show him with a beard.

He wore a beard because he shot himself in the face while cleaning an "unloaded" firearm.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old October 2, 2021, 05:28 PM   #45
SSGN-Doc
Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2021
Posts: 38
Only accidental discharge I had was with a JC Higgins .22 LR rifle. Pulled the trigger while aimed at a sitting cotton tail. Realized the safety was on. Disengaged the safety and… bang. Was still aimed at the rabbit, but missed.

Stopped hunting that day. Got it fixed.

Mechanical failures, I consider accidental. Maintaining the other safety rules kept it from being “negligent”.

Friend went to lower the hammer on his single shot, shotgun and it slipped from under his thumb. Nearly shot his own foot. That was negligent. Should have opened the barrel before lowering the hammer.
SSGN-Doc is offline  
Old October 4, 2021, 07:54 AM   #46
Seedy Character
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 5, 2021
Location: SW Okla
Posts: 201
AD is a malfunction of the firearm

DA is a malfunction of brain behind the firearm


Rule #1 keep booger hook off of bang switch until you are safe and ready for BANG.


40 years ago, I was young and dumb.
A co-worker had asked about the possibility of borrowing a rifle to go deer hunting.
I took him to gun club and instructed him on use of my old, sporterized 03A3.

(His telling)
He booked a 1 day hunt on day lease. Drove up the evening before and slept in his truck.
Got up and went to the orientation, then was driven to his stand.

He fell asleep and woke up to sunshine a huge buck 40 yards in front of the stand.

The rifle was sitting on the blind floor, between his knees, muzzle up. Staring intently at the buck, he wondered if he loaded the rifle? So, he leans forward, takes his thumb and pushes down on the trigger.

.30-06 going off inside a box blind is not fun. Luckily, leaning forward, the muzzle was above his cap bill.

He did not get a deer.
AD? No
DA? YES!!!!!!


I have NEVER lent a gun, where I was not present, again.
Seedy Character is offline  
Old October 4, 2021, 08:51 AM   #47
Reloadron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2016
Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs
Posts: 1,747
Who here has ever had an "accidental" firearms discharge?

Fortunately I have been spared both a AD and DA but will share a story of a good friend. He removed a .380 ACP from his safe thinking the gun was not loaded. Without checking he pulled the trigger and the gun discharged. He put a bullet through his new Dillon Precision loading scale killing it instantly. He confided this to me and I suggested he send the scale back to Dillon with a brief note explaining he shot his scale. Pretty apparent from the looks of the scale it was shot. Nope, too embarrassing he did not want to do it.

Well, OK then give me the scale and I'll send it to Dillon and look stupid and see if I get a new scale. He thought about it for a week and decided to do what I suggested. Sure enough Dillon sent him a new replacement scale at no cost. Says a lot about Dillon and while they likely had a chuckle over the dead scale they were nice enough to replace it.

My wife's cousin's husband managed to discharge a Ruger 10/22 rifle in their Arizona home while Wife's cousin was visiting us here in Ohio. Little 22 LR passed through a basic wall and hit wife's cousin's beautiful antique mirror in bedroom. Didn't end well for wife's cousin's husband at all. Likely would have been better if he shot himself in the leg or even just a bullet into the ceiling, anything but the mirror.

All of the accidental or negligent discharges we read about are easily prevented by following the basic safety rules everytime we handle a gun, any gun. Really is that simple.

Ron
Reloadron is offline  
Old October 4, 2021, 09:34 AM   #48
Aguila Blanca
Staff
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 17,739
Quote:
All of the accidental or negligent discharges we read about are easily prevented by following the basic safety rules everytime we handle a gun, any gun. Really is that simple.
I respectfully disagree.

Accidental discharges are accidents. Following the safety rules will usually prevent an accidental discharge from shooting another person or yourself, and maybe even prevent shooting an antique mirror, but following the safety rules cannot prevent a mechanical malfunction.

And the same really applies to negligent discharges. The basic rules of gun safety are redundant by design, for a reason. A negligent discharge is [virtually] always a result of violating at least one of the safety rules. If all the other rules are being followed, the lapse in following that one rule will hopefully not result in an injury or fatality.
__________________
NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor
NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO
1911 Certified Armorer
Jeepaholic

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; October 4, 2021 at 11:32 AM. Reason: typo
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old October 4, 2021, 09:57 AM   #49
Reloadron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 8, 2016
Location: Cleveland, Ohio Suburbs
Posts: 1,747
Quote:
I respectfully disagree.

Accidental discharges are accidents. Following the safety rules will usually prevent an accidental discharge from shooting another person or yourself, and maybe even prevent shooting an antique mirror, but folloowing the safety rules cannot prevent a mechanical malfunction.

And the same really applies to negligent discharges. The basic rules of gun safety are redundant by design, for a reason. A negligent discharge is [virtually] always a result of violating at least one of the safety rules. If all the other rules are being followed, the lapse in following that one rule will hopefully not result in an injury or fatality.
__________________
Well I can certainly agree with that. A mechanical failure can without a doubt have dire consequences. It does indeed happen even with the best of guns. Remington safety's come to mind and decockers on several pistols.

So yes, in cases of mechanical failure or poor design of a firing mechanism a gun can accidently discharge. Negligence is another story.

Ron
Reloadron is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.06560 seconds with 8 queries