Odd experience at a training

[FrankenMauser]

I have seen revolvers - SAs in particular - prohibited from classes before, due to the additional handling required for loading and unloading. I have seen/heard a variety of excuses. Generally, it comes back to people get freaked out by a revolver not being pointed perfectly down the range while being manipulated for loading/unloading -- or, for one particular range, the 'need' to point a revolver up at the baffles over the range during case ejection (a general rule for that range).

But, as eluded to above by someone else, I have also seen SAs prohibited due to an impression of them slowing everyone else down.

[tdrizzle]

Agreed 100 percent.

You learn something from each class you take, I was told. Sometimes it's what not to do, or who to take more classes from. Sounds like the case here.

[Skans]

The guy owed you an answer. But, you probably should have asked the question at the time he told you to put the speed loaders away. When he trainer snubbed you when you asked a question, that should have been your clue he was being a dick. I don't think I would have let that go. If the jerk didn't want to speak to me then, I would find out who owns the training facility, contact them and let them know what happened.

[Limnophile]

Originally Posted by Deja vu

He seemed more trained in the tactical sense than me so I thought there was a reason. (I have done a little competitive shooting in the past but I’m not what I would consider good at it) Infact I was mostly okay with it in the moment. It wasn’t until after words when I stayed late to ask why that I got an more of an odd feeling about it (because he did not answer and walked away).

It'd probably be best not to pursue an explanation from the instructor. You already tried that without success, and your discomfort and suspicions have been unanimously affirmed here — the instructor was wrong, and you did nothing wrong. Chalk it up as a less than productive experience, don't ever take another course from the guy, and advise those you know and meet to avoid him.

[Deja vu]

Just an FYI I did send the email a while back still no response. At this point I am not expecting a response.

[JohnKSa]

If you get no response then you might consider posting the information about the course here so others don't get into the same problems.

If the instructor can articulate his reasons for his actions, that's one thing. Doing something weird and then stonewalling a paying customer when asked for an explanation is behavior that no instructor should display.

[jar]

Of course a magazine failure simply will not happen when shooting a revolver BUT there are comparable malfunctions that are experienced with wheelies.

Failure to fire in a wheel gun is generally handled by pulling the trigger again. But there are cases where there can be really serious failures with a revolver. The only truly serious example I can think of is when the cylinder gets locked. The person who carries and counts on a revolver does need to be aware of such problems and hopefully prepare for them. My favored plan B is the New York Reload; having an heir and a spare.

But with a revolver, if you can get the cylinder open it's easy and fast to simply dump all the rounds, even those not fired, and load six more. Trying to just remove the spent rounds simply takes too long in an SD situation. Only when you have used up all the speed loaders and speed strips you brought along should you look for un-fired rounds in the dirt.

[Deja vu]

I got an email today saying that the money was refunded. I called my brother who reported that it was indeed refunded. I am just glad it’s over.

[JohnKSa]

I still think it would be a public service to post the name of the trainer. It's good that they refunded your money, but that doesn't fix things. You could have spent the time and ammo taking a different training course from an instructor that didn't have some odd hangup about revolvers.

[jar]

Originally Posted by Deja vu

I got an email today saying that the money was refunded. I called my brother who reported that it was indeed refunded. I am just glad it’s over.

Glad it's over but did you ever get any reasoning or explanation?

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by jar

Glad it's over but did you ever get any reasoning or explanation?

An explanation is generally given when a person has a valid reason, and in that case you would think the trainer would have given such a reason by now. When people don’t have a valid reason they often respond with silence.

[Deja vu]

Originally Posted by jar

Glad it's over but did you ever get any reasoning or explanation?

No explanations just 1 sentence saying sorry for the bad experience and that the situation is being dealt with along with a refund for both my self and my brother (who paid for both of us). As said before I am just glad it’s over.

[Doc Intrepid]

Just curious - I am signed up to take training courses with an instructor out of Idaho in 2023. (I do not run revolvers, but...)

Did you check any reviews from his website, or otherwise check out the instructor before taking the class?

Not asking you to share names here, but wondering if there was any negative feedback that you noticed.

[banjobart]

The instructor is a butt munching Fudd.

[stuckinthe60s]

being the devils advocate as a life longer instructor....there is a lot to watch and keep tabs on when on line with life fire. it may be just a simple case of needing to keep apples and oranges separated with separate classes or training.
sorta like being a road eval instructor at dmv. you go to the parking lot to give a car test, and someone shows up with an 18 wheeler.
again, at my place i can handle issues like that since im small, but some cant.
just being a fair and an open minded american with my opinion.

[JohnKSa]

....there is a lot to watch and keep tabs on when on line with life fire. it may be just a simple case of needing to keep apples and oranges separated with separate classes or training.

Excellent observation. If an instructor needs to have separate classes to simplify his job, then that should be clearly noted in the materials which should specify which type of class is being held on a particular date so students don't sign up for an autopistol class with a revolver, or vice versa.

In your example, for instance, the course materials should clearly state that the class applies only to vehicles with two axles and also that it doesn't apply to vehicles with less than 2 wheels per axle.

Also, while I could see separating classes by weapon type for the reasons you provide, I don't see how it makes sense to allow someone to continue with the class with their weapon but handicap them by preventing them from operating their firearm as they normally would. That is, how does keeping a student from using moon clips while still allowing them to use their revolver simplify the instructor's job in any way?

In your example, for instance, it might make sense to keep the person from taking the class with their semi, but it wouldn't make sense to let them take the class with their semi but then prevent them from ever turning left during the class.

Finally, if the instructor had a constructive reason for the limitation, that reason should have been provided promptly when the question was asked.

[tangolima]

Perhaps the instructor himself is not proficient with speed loader or moon clip. He has nothing to offer to his students. Letting it continue may lead to the situation equivalent to the insane running the asylum. The student somehow becomes the instructor. I have seen that before in other sorts of trainings.

I can see why the instructor did what he did. He could have specified that in the class materials. Maybe he hadn't thought of it. Now he probably will update his class descriptions.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[jar]

Originally Posted by tangolima

Perhaps the instructor himself is not proficient with speed loader or moon clip. He has nothing to offer to his students. Letting it continue may lead to the situation equivalent to the insane running the asylum. The student somehow becomes the instructor. I have seen that before in other sorts of trainings.

I can see why the instructor did what he did. He could have specified that in the class materials. Maybe he hadn't thought of it. Now he probably will update his class descriptions.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

The teacher learning from the student is a far far far cry from the insane running the asylum; and in fact a teacher that is not just willing but rather actively seeking to learn from the students needs to find a different job.

Since it had been about 20 years since I'd even fired one of my handguns I made sure to read the Texas course of fire for the practical range part of the LTC licensing process and it was oriented towards 5 round sequences. There was only one segment that would require a reload and it was at the 3 yard portion which is when time really might be critical. However even that segment allowed so much time that for the test a reload, even if done without a speed loader it would not be an issue even as rusty as I was. I was planning on using my Detective Special and so brought a box of ammo and four HKS speed loaders, two actual DS and the other two for my K frame 19.

Realistically I found that I had more than enough time to reload used speed loaders while the instructions were given for each stage. What I did was shoot five and dump all six into a plastic box I had brought. It was an artificial break point but I'd always practiced doing reloads whenever there was a break rather than only when empty and I'd recover the unused rounds after the test finished.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by stuckinthe60s

being the devils advocate as a life longer instructor....there is a lot to watch and keep tabs on when on line with life fire. it may be just a simple case of needing to keep apples and oranges separated with separate classes or training.

Originally Posted by tangolima

I can see why the instructor did what he did. He could have specified that in the class materials. Maybe he hadn't thought of it. Now he probably will update his class descriptions.

However, in this case the instructor didn't immediately inform the student that he wouldn't be allowed to use speedloaders -- the OP reported that the ban wasn't imposed until hours into the class. Mid-way through a class isn't (IMHO) the appropriate time for a lead instructor to think about revising the equipment requirements for his class. He could have allowed the OP to continue, and then revised his equipment advisory for future classes.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by Deja vu

Just finished a local self defense single day pistol training. It was a small class of 7 people. My self and my brother both attended the class. There was a main trainer and he had an assistant.

Before attending the class I looked up what guns are appropriate for the class. The rules basically said no rimfire and no Single action revolvers. So I brought my S&W 627 (8 shot revolver) and a few speed loaders and some rounds pre-loaded into moon clips.

When we get to the training I am not surprised to mostly see double stack striker fire pistols and only my self with a revolver. Long story short, after a couple hours I was no longer allowed to use the speed loaders or my moon clips and had to load the rounds by hand (for the last 90 min) while every body else still got to use magazines.

After words I stayed late to ask what the reasoning behind it was and the trainer would not give me an answer and just walked away. His assistant did talk to me and told me that I did pretty well and was better with my speed loaders (before the teacher banned them) than many students where with the magazines. I was a little upset but feel that I kept it to my self pretty well.

Any way it’s still bothering me a little. What could the reason for the trainer doing this be? Is it possible that he was trying to help me and I just took it the wrong way? I want to believe that!

Sorry for the rant!

As a retired SWAT training officer, who dealt with a lot of instructors, I can with 99.9% confidence GYARANTEE you that in some way you put boo boos on the instructors fragile ego.

[reynolds357]

Originally Posted by fastbolt

I don't disagree the instructor is at fault for either not being clear when the class requirements were listed, or in making a stupid decision because a student using a revolver might be making other students 'feel uncomfortable' because of the comparative performance 'gap'.

However, even LE training units have occasionally learned the hard way that sometimes the posted class curriculum and requirements involved for outside training might not contain all critical information necessary. Sometimes a phone call (or email) has resulted in getting some helpful additional info ... which ought to have been included in the class info from the get go.

As far as a revolver shooter making some other students feel less capable? That was a great opportunity for the instructor to use as a teaching moment. Gear can only take you so far, and then its the gear user that becomes critical.

Like the time we went to a SWAT team building clearing contest and mopped up. The rules did not state what weapons could not be used. It was stated there were no hostages, only perps and friendlies. We brought only our Benelli M4 with #2 shot. 1 shot would score the required 2 to center mass one to head. To no avail, they tried to make the rule mid competition, but we would not comply. Only written rule was "no buckshot in tire house". Well #2 ain't buckshot.

[DT Guy]

Do you carry your revolver with loose rounds? If not, what you did wasn't training; it was practicing a skill you'll only ever use at a range.

Glad you got the refund; instructors all have strong and weak areas, but some are heavy on the weak...

Larry

[jar]

Originally Posted by DT Guy

Do you carry your revolver with loose rounds? If not, what you did wasn't training; it was practicing a skill you'll only ever use at a range.

Glad you got the refund; instructors all have strong and weak areas, but some are heavy on the weak...

Larry

At times.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by banjobart

The instructor is a butt munching Fudd.

A fudd generally wouldn’t have an issue with a revolver being used, at least as I understand the use of the term.

[Mannlicher]

it's almost like the OP caught a class with an instructor that was out of his comfort zone.