Scopes

reynolds357 · November 6, 2022, 01:47 PM

I have been wondering why FFP is not more widely available. I look at scopes with Mill, Moa, holdover, hash, etc reticles and they are in second focal plane scopes. What use are these reticles in second focal plane? They are only calibrated at a single power. Why not FFP?

50 shooter · November 6, 2022, 02:01 PM

Pretty much every major brand makes scopes now with FFP and SFP. It pretty much comes down to personal choice now.

SFP has been the dominant choice as the reticle stays the same size throughout the magnification range.

Here's some good reading, lays it out so that anyone can understand. https://scopesfield.com/first-focal-...d-focal-plane/

std7mag · November 6, 2022, 05:10 PM

Pretty much as 50 shooter said.

Also several other factors between SFP & FFP.

First is cost.
FFP is generally more expensive than SFP.

Second, with the reticle staying the same size, but target getting larger/smller on SFP, if you do your due diligence, you can zoom out for greater drop.
IE. IF your MOA/MIL matches at say 10 power, theoretically at 5 power, each MOA/MIL is now doubled. Again, due diligence is involved in actually verifying this at the range.
It may not be the perfect 10 power or 5 power.

Third, have you seen how small a FFP MOA/MIL reticle is on low power?
Not particularly conductive at low light levels in a hunting situation.

jmr40 · November 6, 2022, 06:05 PM

FFP is only an advantage on scopes with high magnification. For most big game hunters, a SFP scope is much less expensive and does everything you need.

For most hunters there isn't really any reason to use anything in between the lowest and highest magnification. I zero my scopes on the highest magnification. In my case 4X, 6X or 9X. I leave them on the lowest magnification virtually all of the time.

If I need more magnification, there is no reason not to go all the way to the highest magnification where the scope is zeroed and where the scope is calibrated. The difference between 3X and 9X isn't that great. There is no advantage to using anything in between.

But for long range target shooters with scopes in the 8-32X range there is a big difference between 8X and 32X. And there may be times where something in between would be appropriate and having the scope calibrated at 15X or 20X would be helpful.

reynolds357 · November 6, 2022, 06:10 PM

As to cost, there is no manufacturing reason that FFP costs more than SFP.

Shadow9mm · November 6, 2022, 07:55 PM

in my experience, SFP is cheaper than FFP

Nathan · November 6, 2022, 08:18 PM

Are you sure? My understanding is that FFP reticles must be made much smaller than SFP? It is my understanding that FFP variable optics are much harder to build than SFP.

The purpose of SFP is just what has been said….cheaper construction and easier for the point-and-shoot customer. Remember 90% of hunters are still sighting in 1.5” high at 100 yards and ignoring game over about 250 yards.

FFP can be great, but many of the reticles are made for gamers. A hunting ffp needs thick outer lines and a scale that is minimized for realistic shots. Few folks are really holding 4 mil wind or 8 mil elevation….that is what turrets are for.

Sevens · November 6, 2022, 09:37 PM

Disclosure: I'm not a huge rifle guy like youse guys

I have my first ever FFP optic on my prairie dog gun and I like it a lot. I'm sure that it's "low end" on the scale to many but it's the best scope I've ever owned. Vortex Venom 5-25x56 and it's been phenomenal out to 400+ on dogs.

I've only done one trip with it and I hung around 20-22x most of the time.

reynolds357 · November 7, 2022, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan

Are you sure? My understanding is that FFP reticles must be made much smaller than SFP? It is my understanding that FFP variable optics are much harder to build than SFP.

The purpose of SFP is just what has been said….cheaper construction and easier for the point-and-shoot customer. Remember 90% of hunters are still sighting in 1.5” high at 100 yards and ignoring game over about 250 yards.

FFP can be great, but many of the reticles are made for gamers. A hunting ffp needs thick outer lines and a scale that is minimized for realistic shots. Few folks are really holding 4 mil wind or 8 mil elevation….that is what turrets are for.

With etched glass technology, there is no reason for FFP to cost more.

Nathan · November 8, 2022, 05:19 AM

Quote:

With etched glass technology…

This is quite possibly true. I really don’t know anything about that. I wonder if that is why they have become more widely available under $1000.

Aren’t there levels of precision for glass etching?

There is also the issue of reticle visibility. Some guys can talk for hours about it. I have only been bothered by it in a couple scopes.

I also wonder when reticle designers will truly get it?? I only need to hold about 5 mils wind and 6 mils of elevation! That would give them much more room for the thick outer bars used below 50% magnification to find the center aim point.

Beyond 3 mils of wind I cannot imagine shooting on game, but probably worth holding 5 mils to shoot at steel…just to see.

reynolds357 · November 8, 2022, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathan

This is quite possibly true. I really don’t know anything about that. I wonder if that is why they have become more widely available under $1000.

Aren’t there levels of precision for glass etching?

There is also the issue of reticle visibility. Some guys can talk for hours about it. I have only been bothered by it in a couple scopes.

I also wonder when reticle designers will truly get it?? I only need to hold about 5 mils wind and 6 mils of elevation! That would give them much more room for the thick outer bars used below 50% magnification to find the center aim point.

Beyond 3 mils of wind I cannot imagine shooting on game, but probably worth holding 5 mils to shoot at steel…just to see.

The reticle designers definitely don't get it. I shot a 10x50 ffp Christmas tree scope a while back. On 10 power, you could barely see the reticle. At 59 power, 80% of the tree was missing.

Rob228 · November 8, 2022, 03:35 PM

Quote:

I also wonder when reticle designers will truly get it?? I only need to hold about 5 mils wind and 6 mils of elevation! That would give them much more room for the thick outer bars used below 50% magnification to find the center aim point.

It really depends on your style of shooting. If you prefer using holds to dialing, or you dial for a predominant range and the windage you're shooting at then hold from there having that giant reticle pattern CAN be very useful.

Nathan · November 10, 2022, 06:20 PM

I talking more about the basics…

On a hunting optic: I’m talking impossible to read the reticle at 50% magnification. 10 mils of wind in each direction. No vertical line above the horizontal. Hollowed out thick sections of the reticle. 0.5 mil lines without any reference to 0.2 or 0.25 increments.

Mil reticles with moa turrets. mil scale reticles in SFP optics.

Reticles with a decorative, but meaningless pattern to me.

November 6, 2022, 01:47 PM	#1
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	Scopes I have been wondering why FFP is not more widely available. I look at scopes with Mill, Moa, holdover, hash, etc reticles and they are in second focal plane scopes. What use are these reticles in second focal plane? They are only calibrated at a single power. Why not FFP?

November 6, 2022, 02:01 PM	#2
50 shooter Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2002 Location: SoCal PRK Posts: 986	Pretty much every major brand makes scopes now with FFP and SFP. It pretty much comes down to personal choice now. SFP has been the dominant choice as the reticle stays the same size throughout the magnification range. Here's some good reading, lays it out so that anyone can understand. https://scopesfield.com/first-focal-...d-focal-plane/ __________________ I see the world thru bloodshot eyes Streets filled with blood from distant lies The dogs of war never compromise, No time for rearranging.

November 6, 2022, 05:10 PM	#3
std7mag Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2013 Location: Central Taxylvania.. Posts: 3,609	Pretty much as 50 shooter said. Also several other factors between SFP & FFP. First is cost. FFP is generally more expensive than SFP. Second, with the reticle staying the same size, but target getting larger/smller on SFP, if you do your due diligence, you can zoom out for greater drop. IE. IF your MOA/MIL matches at say 10 power, theoretically at 5 power, each MOA/MIL is now doubled. Again, due diligence is involved in actually verifying this at the range. It may not be the perfect 10 power or 5 power. Third, have you seen how small a FFP MOA/MIL reticle is on low power? Not particularly conductive at low light levels in a hunting situation. __________________ When our own government declares itself as "tyrannical", where does that leave us??!! "Januarary 6th insurrection". Funny, I didn't see a single piece of rope...

November 6, 2022, 06:05 PM	#4
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,805	FFP is only an advantage on scopes with high magnification. For most big game hunters, a SFP scope is much less expensive and does everything you need. For most hunters there isn't really any reason to use anything in between the lowest and highest magnification. I zero my scopes on the highest magnification. In my case 4X, 6X or 9X. I leave them on the lowest magnification virtually all of the time. If I need more magnification, there is no reason not to go all the way to the highest magnification where the scope is zeroed and where the scope is calibrated. The difference between 3X and 9X isn't that great. There is no advantage to using anything in between. But for long range target shooters with scopes in the 8-32X range there is a big difference between 8X and 32X. And there may be times where something in between would be appropriate and having the scope calibrated at 15X or 20X would be helpful. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

November 6, 2022, 07:55 PM	#6
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,969	in my experience, SFP is cheaper than FFP __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

November 6, 2022, 06:10 PM	#5
reynolds357 Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Posts: 6,165	As to cost, there is no manufacturing reason that FFP costs more than SFP.

November 6, 2022, 08:18 PM	#7
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,325	Are you sure? My understanding is that FFP reticles must be made much smaller than SFP? It is my understanding that FFP variable optics are much harder to build than SFP. The purpose of SFP is just what has been said….cheaper construction and easier for the point-and-shoot customer. Remember 90% of hunters are still sighting in 1.5” high at 100 yards and ignoring game over about 250 yards. FFP can be great, but many of the reticles are made for gamers. A hunting ffp needs thick outer lines and a scale that is minimized for realistic shots. Few folks are really holding 4 mil wind or 8 mil elevation….that is what turrets are for. Last edited by Nathan; November 6, 2022 at 08:33 PM.

November 6, 2022, 09:37 PM	#8
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	Disclosure: I'm not a huge rifle guy like youse guys I have my first ever FFP optic on my prairie dog gun and I like it a lot. I'm sure that it's "low end" on the scale to many but it's the best scope I've ever owned. Vortex Venom 5-25x56 and it's been phenomenal out to 400+ on dogs. I've only done one trip with it and I hung around 20-22x most of the time. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

November 10, 2022, 06:20 PM	#13
Nathan Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2001 Posts: 6,325	I talking more about the basics… On a hunting optic: I’m talking impossible to read the reticle at 50% magnification. 10 mils of wind in each direction. No vertical line above the horizontal. Hollowed out thick sections of the reticle. 0.5 mil lines without any reference to 0.2 or 0.25 increments. Mil reticles with moa turrets. mil scale reticles in SFP optics. Reticles with a decorative, but meaningless pattern to me.