Working up 223 loads and need some help

gregjc9 · January 20, 2011, 10:09 PM

I'm starting to work up loads for my AR and have run into some areas I need some assistance. I'm using a Hornady LNL, Hornady 2 die set for 223, and an RCBS Precision Mic.

1. I'm using the Mic to measure the headspace on my once-fired rounds (PMC brass, once-fired by me). I have the sizing die set so that the cases are sized approx .001 -.002 less than the fired case, according to the PM Headspace gauge.

Problem is, to do this, I had to screw the die down further than where it just touches the shell plate. This results in a camming effect in the press handle which is not there normally (when I reload 9mm and 45ACP), and there seems be a lot of pressure on the shell plate. Is this normal?

My concern is that if I put this much pressure on the plate or hub that something might break. If I adjust the sizing die so that it just touches the shell plate (per the instructions), the case is sized quite a bit longer than the fired case, and I didnt think this much working of the brass was conducive to the life of the case.

2. Using the Headspace Nut of the PM to check sized cases, most come out measured at .001 on the Mic - which is what I am trying to get. But many come out measuring higher, like .006 Any ideas why this is happening? Is this enough to even worry about?

3. I spent two hours tonight working with the Freebore tool, but could never get consistent readings. My plan now is to load a few rounds with a OAL of 2.260 (max), 2.250, 2.240, and 2.230, and see which groups best. My Sierra manual lists a OAL of 2.250 for 55gr, so I should be within the ballpark.

I made a dummy round with an OAL of 2.260 and it loads in the mag and chambers fine. I'll be starting at the bottom of the range for H335 (23.6gr). Once I find out which OAL groups best, then I'll vary the loads according to my Sierra manual. After finding the right load, I may tweak the OAL a little more, varying by .002" Any problems with this approach?

All in all, I am very disappointed with the PM.

Going to start looking for a replacement to the PM.

EDIT: tried to clarify post.

mc223 · January 21, 2011, 01:45 AM

Some of the terminology used in your post may be incorrect, Please clarify headspace nut, "headspace on my once-fired rounds"

Since the seater indexes off a place on the ogive of the bullet and you are measuring to the end of the bullet, you will have some discrepancy in the OAL readings.
Your logic for testing by overall length is slightly flawed in that while there may be a difference in point of impact, it may not be necessarily attributed to OAL. As the seating depth gets deeper, case capacity is also diminished which could equate to higher pressure and hence higher velocity.
Sorry I can only recommend that you follow the instructions that came with your press.

silvercorvette · January 21, 2011, 02:34 AM

I stopped reloading for over 3 years because I did a lot of moving around. I am just restarting, I don't think my memory is that bad that I forgot that much stuff during my layoff, but I am having trouble understanding your question and apparently mc223 is also having problems.

By the way I did my reloading on a Dillon 650, and I just bought a Hornady AP press with bullet and case feeder. I got the press before Christmas and the case feeder arrives tomorrow, but Midway has the bullet feeder backordered till May 5th

wwmkwood · January 21, 2011, 07:31 AM

I think the directions for the LNL are pretty well useless as far as setting the rifle sizing dies. I had to screw my full length sizer down about 1/3 of a turn past touching to get the right head space for my .223 ammo. Just for the fun of it I compared the depth of my single stage case holder and the shell plate for the LNL, the LNL was almost .015 higher.

gregjc9 · January 21, 2011, 07:39 AM

mc223:

Quote:

Some of the terminology used in your post may be incorrect, Please clarify headspace nut, "headspace on my once-fired rounds"

The RCBS Precision Mic has a Headspace Nut, and a Land Nut. Here's the info on the Mic.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=477756

gregjc9 · January 21, 2011, 07:43 AM

wwmkwook: I agree about the LNL die instructions. With the seating die adjusted so that it touches the shell plate, the case is resized quite a bit longer than what it was after being fired. The much working of the brass concerns me, as well as any ill effects of having the die possibly interfere with the shell plate/ram. If the bottom of the die could be machined off some, that would probably fix the issue. Or I might have to try a different die.

Either way, I dont like the way it is now.

Jim243 · January 21, 2011, 09:57 AM

Greg

That is one of the problems using a progressive press for doing bottle neck rifle cartrages. You can not trim them after they have been resized, unless you use your progressive press as a single stage press.

After cleaning my cases, I resize them on a RCBS rockchucker press with a X-Base Small sizing die and use a L.E. Willson case gauge to set the die correctly to just bump the shoulder and leave no gap on headspace. Then I will trim the case to the correct length. And using my Lee Classic Turret press load the case.

Works out well with no headspace or length issues.

Jim

Cases should be trimmed AFTER they have been resized.

wwmkwood · January 21, 2011, 10:47 AM

I've loaded several hundred and so far no problems with the shell plate flexing the .015. Keep an eye on the retaining bolt, mine loosened once and had some strange things happen

. I'm sure Hornady will stand behind any issues if the shell plate or ram fail. I run my .223 through the press in several steps. Universal deprime on LNL then tumble in walnut. Lube then resize on LNL followed by the dreaded trim and debur/chamfer. Tumble in corn media and polish. Prime with RCBS APS. Then run the brass through the LNL for powder, seat bullet, and crimp. Putting the cases in the LNL and pulling the handle beats putting in, pulling handle, taking out and repeat.

dlb435 · January 21, 2011, 11:26 AM

I've found the biggest problem with 223 for the AR is getting the cases sized properly. Once you've got the right shell holder/die plate and sizing die combitation, it's easy after that. If you can get your reloads to chamber consistantly then all is well.
Don't feel like you need to reload to the max powder. Often the start (minimum) powder load will work just fine. Adjust the powder charge as needed for your aplication.
Start with the standard 55gr bullet. Use heavier or lighter bullets only if you need them. Check your rifles twist rate to see what range of bulllet weights will work in your AR. Most AR's (1 in 9 twist rate) will handle 45~62 gr bullets. You'll need a twist rate of 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 to shoot 72 gr bullets.
Have fun.

gregjc9 · January 21, 2011, 12:22 PM

I guess I should have noted that yes my LNL is a progressive, but I'm basically using the LNL as a single stage - sorta. Deprime/resize first, trim/champher/debur, (tumble again, etc) then again through the LNL to prime/powder/seat.

My AR has a 1:8 twist, and I know that twist rate prefers 65-75gr bullets. But I wanted use 55gr during my learning curve. Once I get things figured out and running smooth, I plan on trying different weight bullets. But I gotta learn how to crawl first.

This is just a paper puncher at 100yds, but I would like to try and make some decent performing ammo.

I will be calling Hornady shortly to see what they say.

Thanks guys.

EDIT:
Got off the phone with Hornady regarding my first issue. According to Hornady, it is perfectly normal to screw the die down past their recommended setting (of just touching the shell plate), to be able to get the desired shoulder bump for tight chambers. (My AR is a RRA with a Predator Persuit upper, which has a match barrel, so the chamber is probably a little tight.) The rep also stated that he wouldnt suggest going past 3/4 turn from where the bottom of the die touches the shell plate. Anything between 1/2 and 3/4 turn past should be ok. If I need to turn it more to achieve the desired shoulder bump, or am not comfortable with the amount of camming, I can send the die in to Hornady and they will take .005" off the bottom of the die. If I can find a machinist locally, I might try this.

January 20, 2011, 10:09 PM	#1
gregjc9 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2008 Location: Northern Va Posts: 501	Working up 223 loads and need some help I'm starting to work up loads for my AR and have run into some areas I need some assistance. I'm using a Hornady LNL, Hornady 2 die set for 223, and an RCBS Precision Mic. 1. I'm using the Mic to measure the headspace on my once-fired rounds (PMC brass, once-fired by me). I have the sizing die set so that the cases are sized approx .001 -.002 less than the fired case, according to the PM Headspace gauge. Problem is, to do this, I had to screw the die down further than where it just touches the shell plate. This results in a camming effect in the press handle which is not there normally (when I reload 9mm and 45ACP), and there seems be a lot of pressure on the shell plate. Is this normal? My concern is that if I put this much pressure on the plate or hub that something might break. If I adjust the sizing die so that it just touches the shell plate (per the instructions), the case is sized quite a bit longer than the fired case, and I didnt think this much working of the brass was conducive to the life of the case. 2. Using the Headspace Nut of the PM to check sized cases, most come out measured at .001 on the Mic - which is what I am trying to get. But many come out measuring higher, like .006 Any ideas why this is happening? Is this enough to even worry about? 3. I spent two hours tonight working with the Freebore tool, but could never get consistent readings. My plan now is to load a few rounds with a OAL of 2.260 (max), 2.250, 2.240, and 2.230, and see which groups best. My Sierra manual lists a OAL of 2.250 for 55gr, so I should be within the ballpark. I made a dummy round with an OAL of 2.260 and it loads in the mag and chambers fine. I'll be starting at the bottom of the range for H335 (23.6gr). Once I find out which OAL groups best, then I'll vary the loads according to my Sierra manual. After finding the right load, I may tweak the OAL a little more, varying by .002" Any problems with this approach? All in all, I am very disappointed with the PM. Going to start looking for a replacement to the PM. EDIT: tried to clarify post. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Greg Last edited by gregjc9; January 21, 2011 at 07:50 AM.

January 21, 2011, 02:34 AM	#3
silvercorvette Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2010 Location: Anderson SC Posts: 466	I stopped reloading for over 3 years because I did a lot of moving around. I am just restarting, I don't think my memory is that bad that I forgot that much stuff during my layoff, but I am having trouble understanding your question and apparently mc223 is also having problems. By the way I did my reloading on a Dillon 650, and I just bought a Hornady AP press with bullet and case feeder. I got the press before Christmas and the case feeder arrives tomorrow, but Midway has the bullet feeder backordered till May 5th __________________ I am broke, I spent my money on fast cars, guns, reloading equipment and ammo, the rest my money was wasted on nonessential stuff

January 21, 2011, 07:43 AM	#6
gregjc9 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2008 Location: Northern Va Posts: 501	wwmkwook: I agree about the LNL die instructions. With the seating die adjusted so that it touches the shell plate, the case is resized quite a bit longer than what it was after being fired. The much working of the brass concerns me, as well as any ill effects of having the die possibly interfere with the shell plate/ram. If the bottom of the die could be machined off some, that would probably fix the issue. Or I might have to try a different die. Either way, I dont like the way it is now. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Greg

January 21, 2011, 09:57 AM	#7
Jim243 Senior Member Join Date: January 5, 2009 Location: Just off Route 66 Posts: 5,067	Greg That is one of the problems using a progressive press for doing bottle neck rifle cartrages. You can not trim them after they have been resized, unless you use your progressive press as a single stage press. After cleaning my cases, I resize them on a RCBS rockchucker press with a X-Base Small sizing die and use a L.E. Willson case gauge to set the die correctly to just bump the shoulder and leave no gap on headspace. Then I will trim the case to the correct length. And using my Lee Classic Turret press load the case. Works out well with no headspace or length issues. Jim Cases should be trimmed AFTER they have been resized. __________________ Si vis pacem, para bellum

January 21, 2011, 12:22 PM	#10
gregjc9 Senior Member Join Date: June 30, 2008 Location: Northern Va Posts: 501	I guess I should have noted that yes my LNL is a progressive, but I'm basically using the LNL as a single stage - sorta. Deprime/resize first, trim/champher/debur, (tumble again, etc) then again through the LNL to prime/powder/seat. My AR has a 1:8 twist, and I know that twist rate prefers 65-75gr bullets. But I wanted use 55gr during my learning curve. Once I get things figured out and running smooth, I plan on trying different weight bullets. But I gotta learn how to crawl first. This is just a paper puncher at 100yds, but I would like to try and make some decent performing ammo. I will be calling Hornady shortly to see what they say. Thanks guys. EDIT: Got off the phone with Hornady regarding my first issue. According to Hornady, it is perfectly normal to screw the die down past their recommended setting (of just touching the shell plate), to be able to get the desired shoulder bump for tight chambers. (My AR is a RRA with a Predator Persuit upper, which has a match barrel, so the chamber is probably a little tight.) The rep also stated that he wouldnt suggest going past 3/4 turn from where the bottom of the die touches the shell plate. Anything between 1/2 and 3/4 turn past should be ok. If I need to turn it more to achieve the desired shoulder bump, or am not comfortable with the amount of camming, I can send the die in to Hornady and they will take .005" off the bottom of the die. If I can find a machinist locally, I might try this. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Greg Last edited by gregjc9; January 21, 2011 at 01:03 PM.

January 21, 2011, 01:45 AM	#2
mc223 Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2007 Location: n/w Wisconsin Posts: 365	Some of the terminology used in your post may be incorrect, Please clarify headspace nut, "headspace on my once-fired rounds" Since the seater indexes off a place on the ogive of the bullet and you are measuring to the end of the bullet, you will have some discrepancy in the OAL readings. Your logic for testing by overall length is slightly flawed in that while there may be a difference in point of impact, it may not be necessarily attributed to OAL. As the seating depth gets deeper, case capacity is also diminished which could equate to higher pressure and hence higher velocity. Sorry I can only recommend that you follow the instructions that came with your press.

January 21, 2011, 07:31 AM	#4
wwmkwood Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 110	I think the directions for the LNL are pretty well useless as far as setting the rifle sizing dies. I had to screw my full length sizer down about 1/3 of a turn past touching to get the right head space for my .223 ammo. Just for the fun of it I compared the depth of my single stage case holder and the shell plate for the LNL, the LNL was almost .015 higher.

January 21, 2011, 10:47 AM	#8
wwmkwood Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 110	I've loaded several hundred and so far no problems with the shell plate flexing the .015. Keep an eye on the retaining bolt, mine loosened once and had some strange things happen . I'm sure Hornady will stand behind any issues if the shell plate or ram fail. I run my .223 through the press in several steps. Universal deprime on LNL then tumble in walnut. Lube then resize on LNL followed by the dreaded trim and debur/chamfer. Tumble in corn media and polish. Prime with RCBS APS. Then run the brass through the LNL for powder, seat bullet, and crimp. Putting the cases in the LNL and pulling the handle beats putting in, pulling handle, taking out and repeat.

January 21, 2011, 11:26 AM	#9
dlb435 Senior Member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Posts: 654	I've found the biggest problem with 223 for the AR is getting the cases sized properly. Once you've got the right shell holder/die plate and sizing die combitation, it's easy after that. If you can get your reloads to chamber consistantly then all is well. Don't feel like you need to reload to the max powder. Often the start (minimum) powder load will work just fine. Adjust the powder charge as needed for your aplication. Start with the standard 55gr bullet. Use heavier or lighter bullets only if you need them. Check your rifles twist rate to see what range of bulllet weights will work in your AR. Most AR's (1 in 9 twist rate) will handle 45~62 gr bullets. You'll need a twist rate of 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 to shoot 72 gr bullets. Have fun.