Saiga 12 for swat...

[OfficerJohnson10]

Hello to all...

The powers that be have for some reason caught the bug for saiga 12 shotguns and now are looking to possibly utilize one for our tactical team (can someone say "watching too much Sons of Guns"). As such, I have been charges with the task of researching the pros and cons to this particular weapon and as always when given such a task my first stop is TFL to fire off a question at you fine people so, can anyone give me a little first-hand information on the Saiga? Reliability, availability of mags and parts, PRICE!, actual practicality of using the Saiga as an entry weapon, etc...

I'm a little hesitant about using the Saiga in such a compactly because to my knowledge the Saiga is not currently being used in such a way in police work in the United States the same as the AK-47 is not being used...I'm assuming that there is a practical reason to this which evades me at this time (I'm more of a pistol guy). If you folks can give me some info it would be appreciated.

Also...for those giving the thumbs down for the Saiga maybe you can recommend some other semi-auto tactical shotguns suitable for entry work.

Thank you in advance for your replies

[FrosSsT]

The Saiga is a reliable weapon. Prices range from $600-$800 (possibly a little more depending on who you are purchasing from). Parts and magazines are readily available at most online shops such as cheaperthandirt. Magazines run from $20-$40 for the standard and $60-$80 for a drum. Would I use it as an entry weapon? No, and here is the reason why: The recoil would be more than most would prefer in a combat situation as well as the unbalanced feel the Saiga 12 tends to give. The Benelli M4 Super 90 would be my pick, do some research.

[B. Lahey]

They are used heavily in this role by rooski cops, so it's not unheard of, but it certainly is a little weird by US standards.

Compared to other special purpose customized copshotguns they are pretty cheap. Reliability can be incredible, although having one sneak out of the factory unfinished is not unheard of (they have become known as"vodka specials" )

If you have somebody even halfway competent inspect and modify them to your needs you will have some very functional shotguns that everyone will be puzzled by.

[Technosavant]

One would work fine as an entry weapon, IF you had somebody competent do the conversion and chop down the barrel to something manageable (the stock 19" barrel is just WAY too long to be practical).

S12s tend to enjoy heavier loads than lighter ones, so with buckshot and slug loads, it will probably run just fine.

T'were I going to equip a tactical team with S12s, I'd probably get them from somebody with a good rep for quality conversions and who will continue to support the weapon.

[rottieman33]

If you want to know about the Saiga 12 go here.
http://forum.saiga-12.com
I love my Saiga 12 I use it for everything HD,Skeet,trap,hunting. I have run well over 3000+ rounds threw it and maybe had 3 or 4 FTE "failure to eject"

[Evergreen]

My Saiga 12 sits by my bed every night as my primary HD weapon choice along with my M&P 9mm pistol.

I will say, not to sound too geeky, but this is one bad mother of a shotgun. The reason it is maligned is that many people do not have much experience with it and are going more on word of mouth or from firing a few rounds of a friend's gun. It is a real bad machine , but I will warn you, it is very picky about ammo and does require a certain amount of maintenance that a normal shotgun may not require. I don't have a lot of knowledge about shotguns in general, nor does it seem shotguns require a lot of the maintenance that rifles need, but I do know a bit about my Saiga.

You will probably want to get them converted to full AK47 specs , with pistol grip, flash hider, etc. The factory Saigas also have trouble accepting the SureFire mags, which I had to file down to get to fit. I hear this is a non-issue with the converted Saigas which have had moderate mag well adjustments. The barrels should be cut down to a suitable length depending on the situation, e.g. CQB. You will most likely not want to be lugging around the 20rd drums, but the various length SureFire magazines are an invaluable asset that I think makes this one of the most practical "assault"/"battle" shotguns available.

The fact is, I live at very close quarters to all my neighbors, many with children. I have 3, 12 rd magazines loaded with #4 Buckshot which has much less of a chance of over-penetrating my neighbors walls, yet produces quite a burst of shrapnel to put in the threatening bad guy, which at close quarters will have a much better chance of incapacitating then trying to put a single small hole in him with an AR-15 or a pistol.

Also, considering I can carry magazines with various loads for the situation. I don't really know of any shotgun on earth where you can reload in 2 seconds and have 12 rounds available at a moment's notice. If you are in a shootout with bad guys, to me there is no other shotgun that is practical in that situation. Do you really want to be loading up your tube when a bad guy is cracking rounds off at you, fellow officers or innocent civilians/bystanders?

Whoever said the recoil was not manageable must have been firing slugs or something. I have found the recoil of the Saiga to be quite gentle and follow-up shots are very quick with #4 Buckshot or 00 Buckshot in 12ga. As a matter of fact, I can unload more lead with this gun in a shorter amount of time than I think I can with any other gun I've fired, including my ARs, AKs, pistols, etc.

You will have to sacrifice low-recoil rounds, which do not seem to function well in the Saiga 12s. There has been cycling issues.

[M4BGRINGO]

I absolutely LOVE unloading as much #00 buckshot as quickly as possible with this gun! Recoil, come-on, are these people 100lb wimps?

I never shot slugs, only #00 Buckshot and #8 Target Loads. Those #8 had no coil, seemed like shooting a .22.

Those magazines are not that easy to load. Someone told me to lock the bolt back and then load it. While I know how to do that, I don't know that if someone in an emergency situation would remember how to. You can load a full mag into the gun, but it isn't as easy as it should be.

I bought 5 extra magazines and had to remove some plastic from them to even get them to snap into place. It is easy to snap a mag into the gun empty, but full it isn't so easy.

I would still prefer a 7 shot pump gun myself.

[Technosavant]

The factory Saigas also have trouble accepting the SureFire mags, which I had to file down to get to fit.

That's the case even with factory Izhmash magz. I bought 3 more of the things and had to fit each one of them to the gun. Easy enough with a rough file and the OEM mag to use as a reference, but kind of a surprise if you don't know about the need to do that.

[Evergreen]

Those magazines are not that easy to load. Someone told me to lock the bolt back and then load it. While I know how to do that, I don't know that if someone in an emergency situation would remember how to. You can load a full mag into the gun, but it isn't as easy as it should be.

Well, first off, you do have to file the mags down, unless the person who converted the gun modified the mag well.

Second, practice makes perfect. I can in just a matter of one or two seconds load a magazine and chamber a round, empty out and load and chamber another in another couple seconds, etc. The trick I have used is to push the mag all the way up the mag well then give it a nice rotation inward to lock it into the gun. I've had no trouble with the technique I use and can easily change mags. However, I have talk to many who have had trouble and others who just got frustrated and didn't investigate the gun anymore.

I think a law enforcement agency, like SWAT, could easily remedy this problem by hiring some company, like Tromix, to modify the guns to make mag exchange much simpler. I've been told the high end Saiga 12 conversions are designed specifically for easy mag insertion. I, with a little ingenuity and almost no money was able to figure out a system to make mag insertion simple.

Another tip is to never load the magazines to the top. All the loading issues I had was when I would put 12 rounds in the 12rd mags. So, to avoid any problems, put 11 rounds a 12rd mag, 7 in an 8rd mag, etc. That is still plenty of rounds and what does it matter if you can carry 5 mags with you and reload quickly, anyway.

As far as loading the mags being hard, I've never had that experience. It's no harder than loading an AR-15 mag, actually easier, considering how large are the shotgun rounds. Maybe the factory Izhmash rounds are hard, but not the SureFire mags I have used. I've never used the Izhmash mags. It is way easier than loading up a semi auto shotgun one round at a time, which is totally impractical in a combat situation, unless you have people to cover you while you take some time with your adrenaline pumping to pullout rounds from your bandoleer one at a time and put them in your shotgun. Not easy to do with rounds flying at you and the loss of fine motor skills.

IMO, with a little bit of effort, you can turn this gun into one of the best urban-defense/CQB weapons available. THere is an American made semi auto mag fed shotgun that I've seen on television called the AA-12. It appears to be a military/LE weapon and is off-limits to civilians for now. It looks to be quite a bit more expensive than the Saiga and doesn't seem to do a heck of a lot more, at least for most situations I can think about. I'm sure it is made with some nicer components, but nothing that will make a whole world of difference in most situations, especially with LE. Maybe, the military will benefit from the grenade launching rounds, etc..

Here is another cool looking "combat-shotgun" that I've seen browsing the web:
http://www.defensereview.com/srm-arm...ombat-shotgun/

[TheKlawMan]

I have no experience with police work and do not really understand the needs of your tactical team, but I suspect that "entry work" is just one of them. If entry work means breaching doors, I am aware that both Mossberg and Remington have a tactical model that comes with a breaching choke. I do not know the same is true of a Saiga 12 or if a breaching chome is even necessary for blowing doors off hinges.

Elsewhere I have read the concerns of some concerning the use of a Saiga 12 for Home Defense; banana magazines may get in the way. You would know whether that can be a concern of SWAT, which I suspect deals with confined spaces.

[jmortimer]

With the SLP or the M2, M3 or M4 or 930 available, I don't see why anyone would consider the Saiga. The Saiga seems like a "fun" gun but by the time you spend the $$$ to convert to last round bolt hold-open and make modifications to get it to the same level of reliability you could just get a SLP or M2/M3/M4 or 930 which are all as good as it gets.

[M4BGRINGO]

My Saiga-12 is not converted, yet.........

I can't use large magazines here in my communist state, 5 rounds is it!

I can easily load empty magazines into the gun, but full magazines (a whopping 5 rounds) is not so easy. Yes, with practice it became easier, but still is nowhere as easy to do as my AK-47's..............

I have been wanting to take it out to the range again but haven't had the time. The gun is still a blast to shoot!

[Evergreen]

Originally Posted by jmortimer

With the SLP or the M2, M3 or M4 or 930 available, I don't see why anyone would consider the Saiga. The Saiga seems like a "fun" gun but by the time you spend the $$$ to convert to last round bolt hold-open and make modifications to get it to the same level of reliability you could just get a SLP or M2/M3/M4 or 930 which are all as good as it gets.

Pardon me, I am not an expert in shotguns at all, except for the Saiga 12, which is the only shotgun I own. Well, I am far from being an expert, but I have done a bit of research about the Saiga 12. But, what I would like to ask you is do any of the shotguns you mention, including the SLP, M2-4, 930 have detachable magazines?? To me, that would make a night and day difference in regards to the functionality of a shotgun as a battle/CQB weapon. Seriously, once your internal tube is unloaded, you better hope you are not in a life/death situation, because you will not have any time to reload. THat is why a majority of CQB battle-rifles, or perhaps almost all of them, use detachable magazines that can be exchanged with ease in a couple seconds.

To me, the Saiga 12 may not have all the bells and whistles of some of the fancy shotguns, like a Benelli or Rem 870, but they do the job at close range just the same and even better. From my knowledge, which isn't great, I have yet to hear of people using shotguns as a primary weapon for raids or sweeps in CQB. Rather, they served as a weapon backed up by a rifle or pistol. With the use of magazines, shotguns can be used as primary weapons that can be reloaded at a moments notice. That is impossible with all of the shotguns you have mentioned.

Also, you do not need to spend much money to convert a Saiga 12 to turn it into a mean, fighting machine. Yeah, it doesn't look as sexy as your $2,000 Benelli M4 with the fancy stock and gas system. But, you can find inexpensive parts that can make the Saiga 12 every bit as usable in a CQB situation as these "military-grade" shotguns.

I think a lot of the stigma is the gun is of the AK-platform, which would make most American military/LE cringe. Yeah, it has some cheaper parts than a lot of the fancier weapons we say today, but a battle shotgun doesn't need bench mark accuracy of a rifle. The durability of the Saiga and functionality I think are on par with the most expensive battle shotguns. Also, the Saiga has an adjustable gas system and the ability to exchange magazines is indispensable in any combat situation.

I do not own a converted Saiga, but rather I paid $600 for mine , filed down some SureFIre mags and I can load/unload very quickly and unload more lead at short notice than anyone with even the fanciest $2000 battle shotgun.

Seriously, the nice thing about the Saiga is you do not have to put top dollars into it to turn it into a very effective battle tool. IMO, Americans are too fixated on making every gun very "Tacti-cool" and pretty looking. Putting a rail, adjustable buttstock, with a red dot site is not expensive on a Saiga. I'm sure LE would be able to be able to make these conversions even cheaper than the civilian.

As far as banana mags being a hinderance, I don't see how? The mags come in various sizes and can be loaded/unloaded fast. The shorter mags would allow you to shoot in a prone position without much hindrance. Although, I'm not sure how necessary that is at CQB with a shotgun loaded with buckshot.

I'm not sure if the OP is still with us, but if he is and still considering the Saiga 12, you may want to check out this website. This is one of the ultimate sources on Saiga 12 conversion parts I have seen. THere are a few others, but this is the place I go to get my parts:
http://store.carolinashooterssupply....let/StoreFront

Spend one day practicing to unload/load magazines and you will get it. You do have to keep filing them down until the fit works. Never load them to the top. Always leave one round out. Just for fun, I timed myself with 3 12-rd magazines loaded almost full (11 rounds). Two seconds to load/unload each one. This is with an unconverted Saiga.


BTW.. Those who have trouble with loading/unloading mags, there are many accessories to help all.. Another benefit of Saiga 12 platform:
http://store.carolinashooterssupply....gazine-/Detail

[HotGuns]

The Saiga shotgun could be one of the best police tools ever invented.

It can fire 6 rounds per second, take 5,6,8,10 or 12 round magazines, 12 or 20 or 30 round drums and when it has been fine tuned by a qualified builder, it can cycle the cheapest loads made, buckshot,slugs and everything in between.

For a pure fighting shotgun there is none better, nothing is even close.

Some SWAT teams around the country have already found its utility, so it is not unheard of for the police to use it.

It really can excel as a breacher. With the breacher Polychoke, it can use anything from cylinder bore to extra full and where it really shines is in the short barrelled versions which make it very compact and easy to manuver in close quarters.

I personally like the 11-12 inch barrels the best, if you get much shorter than that you get a lot of blast in the face and it makes a lot of racket. The 11's and 12's really are much nicer to shoot.

You can put an adjustable stock on it, which is great for both shirts or wearing body armour when it can be shortened up. You can get some pretty tough looking railed forearms for it, and hang lights, lasers or beer can openers.

They are infinatley customizable and have a whole industry of parts.

I've done several demo's with mine for various police depts. and even qualified with it on my own dept.

Here's a picture of a one of many Saiga conversions that I have done.

The cons...they do take some tuning to make work properly and some mods to the gas system and you'd better know what you are doing.

[Technosavant]

But, what I would like to ask you is do any of the shotguns you mention, including the SLP, M2-4, 930 have detachable magazines?? To me, that would make a night and day difference in regards to the functionality of a shotgun as a battle/CQB weapon. Seriously, once your internal tube is unloaded, you better hope you are not in a life/death situation, because you will not have any time to reload.

Dude, the S12's mag changes aren't any faster than an 870 with a tube speedloader.

Moreover, we're talking an entry team type weapon. If you have a magazine with 5-8 rounds, that's ALL you're really going to be needing. You have other guys with you, there isn't going to be a small army in the place, and name just ONE time a SWAT member was killed due to the slow reload speed of his scattergun. It just isn't an issue.

I still laugh at how many people pretend the S12's mag changes are lighting fast... they just aren't. If you shoot the gun dry, you have to stick in a loaded mag on a closed bolt (again, this is recognized as a slower process), then charge the thing. If you run fewer rounds in the mag to compensate for the difficulty of inserting on a closed bolt, well, you're back to dealing with fewer rounds available.

Ultimately, you're left having to answer the question "If ammunition capacity is likely to be an issue, is this really the best gun for the role, or should we just switch to a submachine gun or a rifle with much greater capacity than any shotgun?" If even five rounds won't do it for an entry team, I submit that the cops would be MUCH better served by setting up shop outside and waiting it out.

You admit you have no other shotgun experience, I submit that you would be well served to try out some of the other guns out there before digging in that heavily on the part of the Saiga 12. If the thing really was that superior to all other designs, the design originating in Russia wouldn't be the thing keeping it out of general service. It's a decent gun, but there's no shortage of other shotguns that serve every bit as well, if not better, in given roles... even antipersonnel roles.

[Evergreen]

Well, I have a little shotgun experience. I attended a 3-gun where I used some other people's semi auto shotguns. Loading up that tube seemed to be quite a chore between loading a up one of my 12 rounders and chambering a round. I only said that they should leave one round out of the mag for those who have trouble.. Personally, I never had any trouble loading up all 12 rounds in the SureFire mag, chambering and shooting away. If you can load a shotgun with speedloaders in 2 seconds, then I would think it would be very effective. Like I said, I'm not so experienced with shotguns. I didn't realize they made tube speed loaders. I don't know why, but I like the whole concept of magazine fed weapons, but maybe that is because that is what I am mostly familiar with. I don't own bolt guns or any other non-magazine fed platforms, except for my revolvers.

[Hardcase]

Personally, if I were on the SWAT team, I would rather have a weapon that came from the factory in as close to a ready-to-use state as possible, not one that needed tweaks, adjustments and modifications to turn it into a (hopefully) reliable weapon.

There's no doubt that the Saigas look tactically bad-ass and I sure wouldn't want to be staring up the barrel at one, but from the other end, I think that I'd be more comfortable with a time-tested shotgun platform.

And if I were on a SWAT team and in some kind of protracted firefight, I'd rather have a rifle than a shotgun, FWIW.

[FrosSsT]

From what I have been reading the only people who recommend the Saiga 12 are the people who own one. Benelli M4 Super 90 it is.

[rottieman33]

I paid $499 for my Saiga 12 and got I converted for under $200 and 4 10 round mags for $112. Total in to gun $811. You can load a mag easy if you leave 1 round out. Took me a about 3 second to drop mag and load a 10 round mag with with 9 rounds with bolt closed. And if the person is still standing after getting hit with 19 rounds of buck shot or slugs I need a bigger gun.

[Technosavant]

And if the person is still standing after getting hit with 19 rounds of buck shot or slugs I need to run, because he's clearly immortal.

I made a minor change there, seems like that's a bit more accurate.

[Scattergun Bob]

If you choose, check out Red Jacket Firearms web site. They are providing their brand of Saga swat scatterguns to southern law enforcement. Perhaps they can provide some contacts you can mine.

Good luck and stay safe

[Sahagan]

I've got two Saiga 12's, one converted, the other not. And I can't tell one iota of difference between the reliability of either one, and blindfolded probably (if I didn't feel the different spaces between trigger guards and magazine) couldn't tell one from the other. I converted the one shotgun, and will convert the other soon. I've also converted a couple of Saiga 7.62x39's, and conversion is easily within the capabilities of anyone with even a modicum of shop experience.

As well as the Saiga's, I have two Benelli M1's, a pre'97 H&K M1, holding nine rounds, and an M1/Super 90 with pistol grip holding 8 rounds.

The greatest advantage I've found with the Saigas is the adjustable stock (one of mine is a side folder, the other an AR like collapsible stock) since I find I much prefer a pretty short LOP.

Not only are the Saigas fun to the Nth degree, they are super reliable, but I confess I did polish the internals. That again though, is something anyone can do in a short period of time.

The Saigas are much easier to add rails, upon which one can add anything you can add to any other tactical gun. The Benellis are much more difficult and expensive to build to tactical performance levels. The 19 inch barrel of the Saiga doesn't add much over the 18.5 inch barrels of the Benellis.

One of the other of my Saigas sits beside my bed nightly...but in manner that might say something about the gun, I have a five round mag in the gun. I don't figure to ever need more than that, at night anyway, though I do have 5, 10, 12 rd mags, and some 20 rd drums, all of which offer sterling reliability.

If it were me, I'd go with the Saigas. Some call them 'new technology' but in fact, they go back all the way to 1947, and the AK platform has spoken for itself in a million firefights and wars...if you don't like the AK, you definitely won't like the Saiga.

[M4BGRINGO]

Ok, to all the guys that have a Saiga-12 and have no problems loading a magazine into the gun, try it with a full magazine and let me know if you can still do it as quickly.

Why doesn't the action stay open when the magazine is empty? That would make things so much better.

I found the only way I could "quickly" load a magazine into the gun would be to rest the butt stock against my leg, use my right hand to slide the bolt open and keep it there, and use my left hand to insert the next magazine. I was able to do this pretty quickly. It is such a hassle to slide the bolt open and use that little lever to hold it open, pretty much useless in a combat situation.

I did not try to leave one shell out. I was doing a 3 gun match where we were allowed to load 6 shells at a time. I probably could have loaded 3 mags with 4 shells each and tried it. I chose to load 5 since we started with one mag in the gun. I then had to swap mags twice during the stage. We had 12 targets to hit so I wanted the extra shots in case I missed. Even with my "issues" I was far quicker than the guys using "regular" shot guns. No one had any sort of speed loaders for their shot guns.

And how about that safety? What a dumb design. We had to use it there, I never have the safety on at home since I do not leave the gun or mags loaded. What do you guys do with that dumb lever, bend it out some so it doesn't get stuck?

[erwos]

Ok, to all the guys that have a Saiga-12 and have no problems loading a magazine into the gun, try it with a full magazine and let me know if you can still do it as quickly.

There is a simple modification you or a gunsmith can do to the bolt to make this far easier. I had JTE do mine, and the difference was night and day.

There are also magwells out there that will let you slam in modified magazines MUCH faster than rock and lock ever could. These are popular in 3-gun, so I'm told, albeit you're not going to be using a drum if you have a magwell.

Why doesn't the action stay open when the magazine is empty? That would make things so much better.

There are after-market conversions that can provide this with good reliability.

And how about that safety? What a dumb design. We had to use it there, I never have the safety on at home since I do not leave the gun or mags loaded. What do you guys do with that dumb lever, bend it out some so it doesn't get stuck?

At the risk of sounding repetitive, there are after-market mods that will get you either 1) an ambi AR-15-style safety or 2) a traditional cross-bolt shotgun safety.

I guess that I'd put the (converted) S-12's strengths as:
1. Speed of reloads
2. Ergonomics
3. Magazine capacity

I'd assume the biggest problem for institutional use is that the magazines all need to be fitted per gun, which sounds like a management nightmare in the real world.

[Mudinyeri]

Personally, if I were on the SWAT team, I would rather have a weapon that came from the factory in as close to a ready-to-use state as possible, not one that needed tweaks, adjustments and modifications to turn it into a (hopefully) reliable weapon.

I found this statement interesting. Caroll Shelby Mustangs immediately came to mind ... as did (I'm sure lesser known) AEV Hemi Jeep Wranglers. Arguably, both vehicles were "fine" when they arrived at Shelby's or AEV's shops from the factory. However, once they left Shelby's or AEV's shops, they were world-class machines.

Why would a firearm be any different? Assuming a reputable shop modifies the weapon, it could very well be a much more reliable and effective weapon once it leaves the modification shop.

As far as the S12 for police work goes ... it would, at worst, be an interesting experiment. Properly modified, they're no less reliable than a Mossberg of Remington. They do operate very differently from most weapons deployed by police forces, however, so considerable training and practice would seem to make sense.