Report of Worn Holster causing AD

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Want to reference such incidents specifically? What else has pulled the trigger?

[9mm]

It's his holster, the gun can slip up, then a finger gets in there or a object and discharge, Glad hes ok.

[sirsloop]

Ccouple years ago a kid around Sayreville NJ accidentally shot and killed himself with a Glock. I don't recall the specifics about his carry method, but pretty sure he was shot in the leg and bled to death. While looking for that article (which I cannot find) I did come across this one...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200...identally.html

I cannot say "sweatpants" are a great carry method for a Glock, but this one is on record as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaxico_Burress Mr. Finger was the ultimate cause of this one... well and a retarded carry method.

Its just not a forgiving design. Granted, you cannot treat a weapon with a safety on as "safe", but at least the damn thing won't go off if you get a little crease in your holster one day. In the case of a 1911, you would have to first disengage the thumb safety, then press the grip safety, then have something moving the trigger. Its just a lot less probable of happening. Lets say some day you get hung up accidentally while holstering. With a Glock if you get hung on the trigger the thing will go off. With somthing with a mechanical safety, you would have to forget/not engage it, or have a mechanical failure, AND make the mistake while holstering. We're only human after all.... a topic i'm sure that's been been to death many times over.

Ehh... Glocks trigger safety. Why would they put a safety on the trigger? Makes no sense! If you get hung on the trigger you want to safety to NOT be on the trigger! They say advantage, I say liability.

[BlueTrain]

I think the idea of the safety in the face of the trigger was to make the gun "drop safe," if you follow me. That's the same reason Colt put the firing pin safety in their guns. True, it makes it harder to take out the firing pin (already hard enough before) and it adds another moving part but it isn't a bad idea to have a gun that won't go off if you drop it. But that's the only reason.

Glock could have made the pistol a double-action-only to begin with but I suppose they had their reasons. DAO automatic pistols have been around since before my father was born but apparently a lot of people either don't see the point or simply don't like them. Come to think of it, there were double action revolvers (pepperboxes) before the Civil War.

Single action revolvers, which have been around for a very long time, were apparently quite accident prone, especially during the days of fast draw.

[shortwave]

Why would you put the safety on the trigger?... They say advantage,I say liability.

100 percent agree sirsloop.

Don't know for sure but I'd also think that it was cheaper, production wise, for Glock to put (what they refer to a safety) on the trigger rather than design a true external lever type(real) safety.

[AK103K]

Ccouple years ago a kid around Sayreville NJ accidentally shot and killed himself with a Glock. I don't recall the specifics about his carry method, but pretty sure he was shot in the leg and bled to death. While looking for that article (which I cannot find) I did come across this one...

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/200...identally.html

I cannot say "sweatpants" are a great carry method for a Glock, but this one is on record as well: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaxico_Burress Mr. Finger was the ultimate cause of this one... well and a retarded carry method.

Anything mis, or improperly handled is prone to discharge. The gun has nothing to do with it.

In Burress's case, the gun worked exactly as it was designed, the trigger was pulled. In his case, like the one here in the original post, was purely user error.

A Glock slipped in the waistband isnt the big bad bogeyman many will tell you either, if you use a little common sense. As a test, Ive been carrying a second, unloaded Glock in mine, as well as pockets, and even picked up off the table by the trigger, basically doing everything Ive been told I cant, for over a year now. Been doing it pretty much every minute Im home, doing everything I normally do around the place, and so far, Ive yet to find one with the trigger dropped. That gun is continually drawn, and "reholstered" too, and not in any dainty fashion.

It seems to me, most of the "unsafe" stuff thrown around on the web, is just rehashed and repeated BS passed on by those who dont have a clue.

In the case of a 1911, you would have to first disengage the thumb safety, then press the grip safety, then have something moving the trigger. Its just a lot less probable of happening.

Youre making the assumption that your guns safeties are engaged and operable. Many times they arent.

Ive owned around 40 1911's over the years, and I carried one on a daily basis, in all sorts of holsters, more than anything else Ive carried. I constantly found the thumb safety swept off at the end of the day, with holsters that had straps and didnt.

Ive also owned a few 1911's that had inoperable grip safeties, right out of the box, as well as over time. If you dont constantly check youre so called "safe" gun, it may well not be.

Have you ever reholstered your gun under stress or with distractions? Can you guarantee youll set that thumb safety every time?

Which gun would be scarier to you if it were being reholstered as above, and the safety was off?

Ehh... Glocks trigger safety. Why would they put a safety on the trigger? Makes no sense! If you get hung on the trigger you want to safety to NOT be on the trigger! They say advantage, I say liability.

The trigger safety on the Glock does keep the trigger from dropping, unless its directly pulled, something a 1911's (and others) trigger doesnt. Just like anything else, Glocks dont go off by themselves.

Ive seen plenty of guns go off unintended, and usually with surprised looks on the faces of those shooting them. Most of them have been on 1911's, because they werent expecting the "light" triggers the guns carried.

I almost always get unexpected "doubles'' when I shoot my buddys Nighthawks, that have a very light triggers, and I still shoot 1911's (with more reasonable triggers) on a regular basis.

If anything trigger related is a "liability", then these way to light 1911 triggers are way scarier than the one on a Glock.

Don't know for sure......

Is that sorta like, "I heard"?

Other than a known malfunction, the "liability" lies with the guns owner.

[sirsloop]

With something with a mechanical safety, you would have to forget/not engage it, or have a mechanical failure, AND make the mistake while holstering. We're only human after all

Ifs its so great, then whats preventing AD on a Glock when you have a holster failure that pushes directly on the trigger? You can be as careful and well trained as you want... a long hot sweaty road trip without AC in your car could be enough to soften and bind that leather right up. Point I was making is at least with a mechanical safety designed pistol (thats not just on the trigger), there has to be a less probable set of circumstances that have to occur. In this specific case (this thread), the person mostly likely would NOT have AD if they were carrying a pistol with a mechanical safety other than a little tiny trigger lever.

[BlueTrain]

It certainly sounds like a good case for carrying a Glock chamber empty, instead of relying on the protection of the holster. I know, I've read most of the threads about how a pistol with fifteen rounds in the magazine is somehow unloaded but a Glock is one of the easiest automatics to get into action with an empty chamber. If you are going to carry chamber empty, obviously it still has to be easy to use that way and not all pistols are. I don't care for Glocks for other reasons, however, the trigger being one of them, though not because of the way it works but the way it feels. I expect others don't notice a thing. I am the same way about most other guns and double actions are generally perfectly fine.

Old school handgunnery generally including getting your finger inside the trigger guard right away as part of the draw and I suspect that's a bad idea with a Glock, although any other DA auto or revolver will tolerate it pretty well. That's why old fashioned Jordan style holster look the way they did. But that's out of the question with an inside-waistband holster in the first place, so it's a moot point carried that way. But with more contemporary holster designs, it is usually covered with little practical difference in speed, unless you're an exceptionally fast draw, which I am not.

And while we're talking about Glocks and similiar things, one could be forgiven for thinking that anyone who would go for a Glock in the first place wouldn't mind having a plastic holster to go along with it.

[sirsloop]

I draw my 686 the same way I draw my autos... finger outta the trigger guard. Revolvers are also capable of going off in this fashion, but it would be much much more difficult to pull off between the heavy trigger pull, the friction against the cylinder rotating, and the resistance from the strap under your hammer would provide.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

OH, yawn - don't carry a Glock. Like I thought - a vague accident, blah, blah.

[Jimmy10mm]

The easy DA trigger pull on a Glock and on my Kahrs are two edged swords. Nice shooting them but we've got to be careful. When I got my G-23 second hand from a friend he had a 3 1/2 pound disconnect in it. I had it changed back to the standard 5 pound or whatever it is. My Kahr MK40 and P380 have smooth triggers. Not hair or light triggers but I too keep my finger out when I draw.

I remember seeing a youtube video of a Swat team guy giving a demonstration in front of a classroom full of kids. He shot himself in the leg with his Glock either drawing or maybe it was reholstering. Even expert gun handlers can have a miscue when the finger is in there. Sorry the OP had the mishap but glad he is alright and that this thread was started. I'll be more careful than I have been and that is very careful.

[sirsloop]

The DEA agent that shot himself was being an idiot, playing with the gun. After saying he was the only one qualified to handle it, he racked the slide back, held it up and pronounced it was "an unloaded gun", then racked the slide forward while apparently there was a mag in there (and chambered a round), then pointed the gun at his foot and pulled the trigger. After things calmed down he tried to grab another unloaded gun that looked like an AR15

[Glenn Bartley]

Ifs its so great, then whats preventing AD on a Glock when you have a holster failure that pushes directly on the trigger? You can be as careful and well trained as you want... a long hot sweaty road trip without AC in your car could be enough to soften and bind that leather right up.

To have happen what you just described is either due to fantasy or due to the worst piece of junk holster imaginable or due to it being overly worn out or having been tampered with purposefully. The failure in this instance, I think, was not with the pistol but was with the person and possibly the holster manufacturer. I have worn leather holsters for years and never had that happen once even with fairly poor quality holsters. That includes 4 years of wearing leather holsters while I was in the Border Patrol in Calexico, CA, weeks of work in Florida on marine patrol with a wet holster at almost all times, hiking in the mountains of AZ with a holster soaking wet from sweat repeatedly, and years of hot, humid, summers in NYC with sweat penetrating my holster. So, don't for a moment try to convince me that a few hours in a car without AC and with sweat all over the holster will cause that to happen with even just a fair quality holster when such has never even come close with the many holsters I have worn in much worse conditions, nor has ever been reported to me during the 14 years I was a firearms instructor for my agency. I think it just will not happen unless, in my opinion, the holster is worn out beyond use, or there is a defect, or the holster is absolute junk, or it purposefully is tampered with to cause the condition. In any of those cases the holster wearer or any other person who effected the holster's condition would be at fault as far as I can see. The person wearing it would also be at fault simply for continued use of it, in that condition, even if the person wearing it did not cause the damage.

Would pistol design have anything to do with the reported event happening. If it happened as described, yes it would but through no fault of the pistol design. The fault was due to, in my opinion, what I think amounts to a less than reasonably careful person wearing a faulty piece of leather gear and then not holstering the pistol into it properly. I think, there is no way that said holster should have come to that condition without it having been noticed, by a reasonably attentive person, from what I can tell. To me it appears to be long term damage or a major defect or tampering that should have been obvious to the holster user had he examined and cared for his leather properly.

All the best,
Glenn B

[LouCap]

I've got to agree with Glen here. The weapon (or firearm if you prefer) was either not seated properly in the holster, or was jammed into a holster not made for that gun. The holster should cover the entire trigger guard, but somehow this managed to work it's way into the front of it? True, the holster looks well worn, but there seems to be an issue with fit or retention. The gun did what it was designed to do.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Tablet using Tapatalk Pro.

[Glenn Bartley]

The thing is, I'm not about to bash the person so hard over the head about the things he has told us about. If I was him, I'd never make another post here about stupid things he's done. I've done my share of stupid things (only a few involving firearms or something dangerous) and I'd rather not subject myself to the kind of responses that could only be expected.

Did the person, who was involved in the actual incident, create this thread. It sure did not read like that to me. The person who was shot wrote an anonymous article and had it published on another site if I understand correctly. I kind of admire the person at least for his having done that, publishing his experience as a sort of warning to others.

All the best,
GB

[markj]

NDs can happen with any firearm thats for sure.

I dont see it as a glock is a killer type thing. Anyone buys any gun needs to read the manual and see what is required to handle it safely. And have a good holster. in this case.


Instructor had a holster went inside the waistband using clips to hold it in place, couldnt even tell he had it on. Now I forgot the name.....crossbreed? maybe

[BGutzman]

Ccouple years ago a kid around Sayreville NJ accidentally shot and killed himself with a Glock. I don't recall the specifics about his carry method, but pretty sure he was shot in the leg and bled to death.

Probably realized what he was carrying and in a fit decided to end it all...

[Jimmy10mm]

I was a union ironworker in my younger days, mostly doing structural steel erection. When I was an apprentice I was told to keep your eyes open for potentially unsafe situations or actions. The journeyman who told me this said,"Be vigilant, if we knew an accident was going to happen we would correct the circumstances beforehand and not allow it to occur."

Reminds me of a fellow 40 years ago. He was riding in the bed of a pickup with some other hunters. They got to their destination and hopped out of the bed. He jumped out with a loaded double barreled shotgun in one hand. The butt of the shotgun hit the step bumper hard enough to trip the sear and the fellow was killed by the accidental discharge. Anyone might have done the same thing without even thinking that it could be unsafe. Be careful out there guys and gals.

[AK103K]

Probably realized what he was carrying and in a fit decided to end it all...

Naaaa, he just finally realized he was in NJ, and saw his life was hopeless. Of course, since a Glock was in the neighborhood, its the Glocks fault.

Since were talking about PRNJ, how about all those holster/gun malfunctions the NJSP had when they first switched to the P7's back in the 80's? The P7 is about the safest gun out there, and yet.......

[AK103K]

Theres a very simple solution there, dont carry one.

If youre not comfortable with it, then you probably wont be much good with it, at least in a realistic way.

As far as self inflicted stats, the only way to know there, is do the math with the percentages. Numbers dont lie, but like anything else, they do need to be in context.

[shortwave]

shortwave wrote:

Don't know for sure.....

AK103K responded:

Is that sorta like,"I heard"?

No, just an educated guess that it would be less expensive to apply a "so called trigger safety" to a pistol rather than re-making all your production machinery or remaking all your pouring molds to accomodate either a slide or frame mounted, real external safety. Which is what Glock would have to do. Pretty much basic economical/business common sense don't you think.

A different opinion is always welcomed.

At any rate,IMO, yes the holster in the vid. probably should have not been used(with any pistol) and the fault lies on the guy that shot himself but I don't see how anyone could argue that if there would have been an external safety that was applied, this probably wouldn't have happened as already has been explained in various earlier posts.

[BlueTrain]

Ruger re-makes things all the time; why couldn't Glock?

[Wildalaska]

Ive owned around 40 1911's over the years, and I carried one on a daily basis, in all sorts of holsters, more than anything else Ive carried. I constantly found the thumb safety swept off at the end of the day, with holsters that had straps and didnt.

Woa woa wee woa, I've never had that happen, and I carry Mexico lots of the time.

Then again, fat rolls act as safety padding.

WildspiffchimeinAlaska ™©2002-2011

[mavracer]

Originally Posted by AK103K

In Burress's case, the gun worked exactly as it was designed, the trigger was pulled. In his case, like the one here in the original post, was purely user error.

A Glock slipped in the waistband isnt the big bad bogeyman many will tell you either, if you use a little common sense. As a test, Ive been carrying a second, unloaded Glock in mine, as well as pockets, and even picked up off the table by the trigger, basically doing everything Ive been told I cant, for over a year now. Been doing it pretty much every minute Im home, doing everything I normally do around the place, and so far, Ive yet to find one with the trigger dropped. That gun is continually drawn, and "reholstered" too, and not in any dainty fashion.

Originally Posted by AK103K

Ive owned around 40 1911's over the years, and I carried one on a daily basis, in all sorts of holsters, more than anything else Ive carried. I constantly found the thumb safety swept off at the end of the day, with holsters that had straps and didnt.

I've carried a 1911 off and on for 20 years, holsters with straps and without. I check the safety all the time and have never found it to be off safe.
so does it make you inability to keep your safety engaged user error or the fault of the machine.

[shortwave]

Woa woa wee woa, never had that happen...

Me either and I've cc'd a 1911 for 30+ yrs. If at the end of every day, I found my safety off, I think I'd find a different mode of carry.