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Old May 7, 2022, 10:58 AM   #26
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If only someone had explained this to me or had practical drills to practice this during the 250 plus hours of training my employer has sent me to.
Your employer sent you to 250 plus hours of training to shoot game animals at long range???

What employer is that??

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Here we go again with “I can’t nor do I ever want to learn how to, so nobody else should either” mentality. Which the reply will ultimately be about ethics. Prove me wrong.
You quoted what I said, but your reply tells me you didn't understand it.

The only part you got even remotely correct is that ethics are involved. Its SPORT hunting, not survival. Its not about what you can do its about what you should choose to do.

We can hold different opinions about what we feel is ethical, but if you feel ethics has no place in sport hunting, I feel you should choose a different hobby.
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Old May 7, 2022, 12:27 PM   #27
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I am certain I’m not unique when it comes to having skills in both stalking ability and shooting ability. I know my circle of company is capable in both of these skills I also know not everyone is. I find more often than not when people are lacking in knowledge and skill they have a tendency to dismiss those who do.
There is no skill or knowledge that one can have that will tell you if an animal is going to move after you take your shot. The further away you are, the more time the bullet spends in the air, and the more time the animal has to do something unpredictable.

You have both knowledge and skill in stalking and shooting. But to drop your animal, the best bet whenever possible is to stalk in closer. You can more precisely place your bullet. Have less environmentals to deal with, and deliver more energy to the target. Can i shoot out to 500yds well, yes. Would i take that shot on an animal, no, there is too much chance of the animal moving between when i pull the trigger and when the bullet gets to the target.
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Old May 7, 2022, 12:59 PM   #28
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Long range hunting is one of those discussions that seems to raise hackles and devolve into a bit of ad hominem. The OP just asked about bullets! I'll add my view on both.

There are a lot of ethical issues in hunting. And when to shoot or not is one we all face. My view: If you are sure you can make the shot, take it. Doesn't mean you never miss or send one that, on reflection, you think unwise. It means you are absolutely sure of your target and background, and the chance is within the capability of the shooter (you) and the equipment. A 700 yard shot ridge-to-ridge on a calm day with a solid rest and an appropriate rifle with well known ballistics might be more ethical than a 70 yard shot at running game in heavy brush. Maybe not. Ever hear someone speak of a "sound shot"? I have.

What is most important is followup. Time consuming, tedious sometimes, but absolutely required of an ethical hunter. If you're willing to hike over to that ridge and comb the location for any spot of blood or hair and search the area until you find the game or are sure of a clean miss, go ahead and take your long shot. And good luck!

Now bullets. Assuming you have an accurate load, your bullet needs to hold together in case your game walks out in front of your magnum knock-'em-dead at 50 yards instead of 500. I've only killed two elk, one at 400 yards and one at maybe 20 (maybe 10). Same 7mm Rem Mag. The one at 400 went down quicker. This was early in my career, and both bullets were cup-and-core. I wouldn't use them now. But I think any "premium" bullet will work. I had great success in Namibia with Nosler Accubonds. And I have found that Barnes TTSX are very accurate, often the best performer in a number of my rifles. Have yet to put one into game, but check out Ron Spomer's video. I am getting a 338 RUM barrel installed on one of my 700s, and my first load workup will be the Barnes 210 TTSX.
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Old May 7, 2022, 01:08 PM   #29
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What bullets do you use for hunting….especially a little longer range? I’m thinking about going all copper…
Depends on what I am hunting. For deer/Elk, I used to use Barnes. In my opinion, bonded bullets have surpassed them in dependability and quick takedowns. Swift Scirricco2 and Nosler Accubond are now my favorites.
For Deer, about anything is sufficient.
I have made some super long kills with Berger VLD hunting. They are super accurate. The flip side is that at high velocity, they make a super mess. I shot a Whitetail buck last year in shoulder. 140 6.5 mm that should have hit him at between 3100 and 3150. Threw both shoulders away. Meat was destroyed.

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Old May 7, 2022, 05:06 PM   #30
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I shot the doe at 413 yards.
I could have taken the shot from 550 yards where i originally lazed them.
I decided to shoot from that distance due to several factors.
1) i could have confidently made the 550 yard shot, but decided to get closer.
2) at 413 yards the deer were starting to get fidgety.
3) weather was cooperating. 18°f, 2mph wing coming head on.
4) i was extremely comfortable making a 400 yard shot. A distance i shoot at often.

Unless your shooting a mono bullet, your shooting a cup & core bullet. Tip or no tip, bonded or not. Still a copper cup & lead core. Hence cup & core.

Nosler's ABLR has minimum velocity requirement of 1,300fps.

If yor shooting both shoulders with a Berger, your doing it wrong.
Put Bergers in the ribs.
NOT major bones.
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Old May 7, 2022, 09:42 PM   #31
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I shot the doe at 413 yards.
I could have taken the shot from 550 yards where i originally lazed them.
I decided to shoot from that distance due to several factors.
1) i could have confidently made the 550 yard shot, but decided to get closer.
2) at 413 yards the deer were starting to get fidgety.
3) weather was cooperating. 18°f, 2mph wing coming head on.
4) i was extremely comfortable making a 400 yard shot. A distance i shoot at often.

Unless your shooting a mono bullet, your shooting a cup & core bullet. Tip or no tip, bonded or not. Still a copper cup & lead core. Hence cup & core.

Nosler's ABLR has minimum velocity requirement of 1,300fps.

If yor shooting both shoulders with a Berger, your doing it wrong.
Put Bergers in the ribs.
NOT major bones.
If you listen to Berger, actually watch Berger hunting videos, right behind the shoulder is where the Berger sponsored shooters put them.
I have put plenty in the ribs. They may go down or may have to track to Egypt. My son shot a nice 10 past season with 6.5 130 VLD. Double lung. No exit. Basically no blood for over 200 yards. It was laying in a lake of blood, but no blood trail.

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Old May 8, 2022, 07:24 AM   #32
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Yeah, double lung expect some tracking.
I've never had an exit with the Berger VLDs.
All have been heart & lung shots.
7mm-08AI with 140gr VLD at 413 yards left bullet sized entry hole, no exit.
She turned 180° & made it 20 yards. Blood everywhere! Both lungs & heart destroyed.
Heart in 2 pieces & consistancy of goo. Found jacket between 1" layer of fat and hide on offside.

Another doe at 125 yards, same result.

Daughters 6 point the other year using 115gr VLD in my 257 Roberts shot about 70 yards.
"He just kinda puffed up. Went straight legged. And fell over."
Again, no exit. Both lungs & heart utterly destroyed.
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Old May 8, 2022, 08:16 AM   #33
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Yeah, double lung expect some tracking.
I've never had an exit with the Berger VLDs.
All have been heart & lung shots.
7mm-08AI with 140gr VLD at 413 yards left bullet sized entry hole, no exit.
She turned 180° & made it 20 yards. Blood everywhere! Both lungs & heart destroyed.
Heart in 2 pieces & consistancy of goo. Found jacket between 1" layer of fat and hide on offside.

Another doe at 125 yards, same result.

Daughters 6 point the other year using 115gr VLD in my 257 Roberts shot about 70 yards.
"He just kinda puffed up. Went straight legged. And fell over."
Again, no exit. Both lungs & heart utterly destroyed.
Last day of season, I was filling the freezer. Berger 130 VLD 6.5x284 Norma. 15 yds. Ground blind. Double lung no exit. I thought I missed the doe. She twitched and started eating again. She ate for over 30 seconds. I put scope on her again and saw blood pumping out entry hole. She continued to eat for another few seconds and then started stumblingand ran off. She made it 120 yards to the cattle fence and crashed and died in it. Bergers in the lungs don't impress me.
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Old May 8, 2022, 08:25 AM   #34
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Bullets almost never fail.
I read the rest of your post. Let’s just say, I hear Boeing is hiring.

Bullets do fail….to perform to the marketing and expectations.

For example, Hornady markets the SST as a high velocity hunting bullet. The ones I have seen in the field blew up.

Berger markets the EH(Elite Hunter) or EOL(Extreme Outer Limits). On game I found these to make unnecessarily large holes risking meat damage. Effective, but failure to me.

Nosler Accubond….marketed as a premium bonded hunting bullet. I agree. A bit expensive, but every one worked every time for me. Ballistic Coefficient is slightly below max, thus the ABLR.

If you want to learn about bullet performance, watch SimpleMindedFella on YouTube. He gets it.

Quote:
Here we go again with “I can’t nor do I ever want to learn how to, so nobody else should either” mentality. Which the reply will ultimately be about ethics. Prove me wrong.
I cannot reply to this. Thanks for those that can reply in a civil manner.
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Old May 8, 2022, 11:48 AM   #35
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For example, Hornady markets the SST as a high velocity hunting bullet. The ones I have seen in the field blew up.
LOL, it is a cup and core bullet. They commonly come apart and "blow up" as you described it. That is not atypical for cup and core bullets at higher velocity. It failed more in regard to meeting your expectations rather than failing in what is typical performance, as with your 2nd example.

It has been my experience with them that at higher velocities, they most SSTs certainly can and often do come apart, something I see as a bonus. At medium impact velocities, they expand, although a bit irregular. At lower velocity impacts, they tend to perform like a softpoint.
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Old May 8, 2022, 02:02 PM   #36
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There are, of course, two classes of bullet failure.

One is a bullet failing to perform to your expecations.

The other is a bullet failing to perform to the maker's expectations. This sometimes happens with new designs and is generally corrected shortly after the maker learns of it.

The classic example of this is the early .458 Win Mag. Win put the 500gr FMJ made by Hornady in their ammo. Early reported results were poor. Joyce Hornady went on safari and talked to a lot of the PH's about why they didn't like the round and heard about lack of penetration and the bullets "riveting" and other failures, from people who didn't know (and weren't told) he was the guy making the bullets.

Hornady went home and redesigned the bullet. After that, its performance in Africa improved a lot and it became a very popular round for biggest game.

No one can fix a problem they don't know exists. If you have a bullet that fails to perform in some way, its important the people who make it learn about that, exactly what it did, and didn't do and the specific conditions involved.

If its a matter of the bullet not doing what they expect it to do, they will fix that. If its a matter of the bullet not meeting your inflated expectaions, they can't fix that...
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Old May 8, 2022, 02:50 PM   #37
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There are, of course, two classes of bullet failure.

One is a bullet failing to perform to your expecations.

The other is a bullet failing to perform to the maker's expectations. This sometimes happens with new designs and is generally corrected shortly after the maker learns of it.

The classic example of this is the early .458 Win Mag. Win put the 500gr FMJ made by Hornady in their ammo. Early reported results were poor. Joyce Hornady went on safari and talked to a lot of the PH's about why they didn't like the round and heard about lack of penetration and the bullets "riveting" and other failures, from people who didn't know (and weren't told) he was the guy making the bullets.

Hornady went home and redesigned the bullet. After that, its performance in Africa improved a lot and it became a very popular round for biggest game.

No one can fix a problem they don't know exists. If you have a bullet that fails to perform in some way, its important the people who make it learn about that, exactly what it did, and didn't do and the specific conditions involved.

If its a matter of the bullet not doing what they expect it to do, they will fix that. If its a matter of the bullet not meeting your inflated expectaions, they can't fix that...
I would say bullets needs to perform as stated by the manufacturer. And the user needs to understand their needs and should select the appropriate bullet for what they are doing.
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Old May 8, 2022, 03:36 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP View Post
Put me in the old school that says that if you shoot a game animal at more than 300ish yards you should have to write yourself a letter, in triplicate, longhand (no keyboards, no carbon paper...) explaining exactly why you had to take that shot.

In my state one has to draw a tag to hunt big game. Some of the areas has large very wide open spaces. One such it area1 which has some extremely large open areas. I drew an elk tag for that area and having hunted it before knew this. Once the first shot goes off on opening day, the elk do one of two things; take off for the adjacent Indian reservation or one of those open spaces. Sitting out in the middle they can see hunters coming from a long way off.

My rifle of choice for that particular areas is chambered to the .300 Win. mag. I run 200 gr. bullet pushing close to 2900 FPS. Practice before the hunt includes ranges to 500 meters. I use my clubs silhouette range for the longer range practice.

Opening day the elk were on the move by 8AM. One herd was headed toward the "rez" smack dab in the middle of an area roughly a mile and a half wide and about two or three miles long. A long crawl put me behind a small bush from when I laser measured the distance to the elk. Absolutely no way to get any closer. Laser said 530 yards. Close enough to 500 meter and I held according. Oe shot later I was walking over to tag my cow elk. That just happened to be the longest shot I've ever taken on a game animal. I much prefer getting as close as possible bit sometimes it's not in the cards. FWIW, I've only taken one other really far out shot. A Mule Deer at 426 paces. Sorry no laser rangefinders back in 1973. Deer had been hit by my hunting partner and was getting way.

My point being, sometimes you either take a long shot or eat tag soup. If you're reasonably sure you can make the shot, do it. If not, well you know the answer.
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Old May 8, 2022, 07:25 PM   #39
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LOL, it is a cup and core bullet. They commonly come apart and "blow up" as you described it. That is not atypical for cup and core bullets at higher velocity. It failed more in regard to meeting your expectations rather than failing in what is typical performance, as with your 2nd example.

It has been my experience with them that at higher velocities, they most SSTs certainly can and often do come apart, something I see as a bonus. At medium impact velocities, they expand, although a bit irregular. At lower velocity impacts, they tend to perform like a softpoint.
Yep. The SST is designed to penetrate a few inches and explode.
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Old May 8, 2022, 09:37 PM   #40
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The thing that taints the image of the long-very long shot on big game is not the people who practice and can actually make the shot, but the number of people who "know they can" because their rifle can do it, when in reality, they are not skilled enough to be certain of reliable results.

Yes, there are times when one simply cannot stalk closer. Then it becomes judgement call, and I was raised to be ok with "eating tag soup" as you call it, and not taking a questionable shot.

To me, its ok to not fill my tag on a given day if conditions don't allow it. Its a SPORT, not a must happen thing. In the example you gave, you practiced, you had accurate ranging, all the right things, and you were successful.

Now, take the same situation and suppose the elk took a step just as you pulled the trigger? Maybe instead of going into the boiler room, the bullet hits too far aft, and now you're tracking a gut shot elk. ]

And when the shooter is someone who hasn't practiced, only read ballistic tables, the odds of a poor shot go up further.

Personally I will pass on a shot like that, but then I'm not focused on filling my tag at the main reason for hunting. Of course, that's just me...

Its a variation of slob hunting, where people doing what they shouldn't besmirches the people who can, and do what they should.

If you look at my post about taking a long shot, the thing you should get from it is that what I'm asking for is a good reason why you had to take the uber long shot. And, to me, desire to fill a tag alone isn't a good enough reason. Nor is the cost of what you spent.
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Old May 9, 2022, 05:44 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by 44 AMP
Its a variation of slob hunting, where people doing what they shouldn't besmirches the people who can, and do what they should.

If you look at my post about taking a long shot, the thing you should get from it is that what I'm asking for is a good reason why you had to take the uber long shot. And, to me, desire to fill a tag alone isn't a good enough reason. Nor is the cost of what you spent.
I think you eloquently explained the problem of posting a technical question about bullets.

I believe I’m not taking this out of context, but isn’t calling long range hunting a “variation of slob hunting” kind of a personal insult? Fortunately, my skin is thick enough to handle that, but….

Do you call archery hunters “a variation of slob hunting”? Seriously, archery hunting close or far must consider the animals reaction to the bow because the deer actually hear the shot, think somebody shot a bow, then start to run before the arrow hits them.

Long range hunters fire, hit the game, then the sound gets there, then the deer moves. Now, if the game is moving right before/during the shot that is different. At 600 yds, time of flight is 0.71s for the last thing I put in the solver.

Somebody, who actually studies what game is doing knows when the animal is stopped. You get an idea about it after watching 1000’s of animals.

Now, I agree on one point. Do I need a long range rifle? Probably not. Do I need a rifle option? Shotgun good enough? Single shot good enough? Muzzleloader enough? Knife good enough? I’m just saying game has been taken with all kinds of weapons. Why would we as shooters want to position ourselves as controllers of other individuals choices?

I’m off topic. I asked. Got some answers, appreciate the chat, but some of it just wasn’t helpful. One thing you might consider is I can pretty much setup my own loading tests, techniques and practice with great success. I generally post things to spur up conversation about activities I’m doing. Maybe share something helpful or learn something from you all. At least generate some traffic for the site.
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Old May 10, 2022, 09:45 PM   #42
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I believe I’m not taking this out of context, but isn’t calling long range hunting a “variation of slob hunting” kind of a personal insult?
I'm not talking about long range hunting by people who know what they are doing, and have the skills and tools to reasonably ensure success. I'm talking about the "slob" who takes long range shots they can't make, (except as a fluke) just because they can, having read their rifle can do it, and they don't want to go home with an empty tag.

Shooting without reasonably knowing the range, maybe without knowing the drop of your round, without having learned to read the wind, and how to compensate for that, people claiming skill when in reality they are just guessing.

Like the slob shotgunner shooting every bird he sees, mostly "skybusting" shooting at birds well out of effective range. And worse, the "sound shooters" (never actually met one of those, thankfully) be we've all heard of them, people (always "city people) who shoot at the sound of a "deer in the bushes"...etc.

These are the kind of people I mean to insult, because their actions insult the rest of us and make non-hunters think all hunters are like that.

I spent many years varmint hunting for recreation. Shooting woodchuck down to prairie dogs at ranges of 300yds plus. A few much longer shots I made, as well. I know the skill needed to connect with a small target at long range. And, I respect that.

I'm also confident of my personal ability to make a long range shot on big game, if I HAD to. But I don't have to. Its sport hunting, and its ok for the game to "win" sometimes.

Who's the bigger loser, the guy who goes home with an unfilled tag because he decided not to take a long range shot, or the guy who did, and blew it, only wounded the game, which he later lost?? Both go home with empty tags, but only one meets my standard of ethical...

Big difference to me, between having worked at it and developed the skill to make a long range game shot and some yahoo taking a long range shot because he saw a guy on U Tube who said he could do it....
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Old May 10, 2022, 10:14 PM   #43
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I'm not talking about long range hunting by people who know what they are doing, and have the skills and tools to reasonably ensure success.
So they don't need to write letters, long hand, in triplicate, explaining why they had to take the shot?
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Old May 10, 2022, 10:26 PM   #44
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I limit myself to 150 yrds no matter the rifle in hand. I like that 150 distance and its a comfortable shot for me. I rather give a deer a pass at 200 in hopes I'll see it again perhaps closer in a day or two later than shoot and miss or worse wound and never see again. I have two main rifles for deer. Savage 300 and Rem 270 win. Both are very capable for long distance shots but. >I unlike so many. Have patience and I know my limitations.
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Old May 11, 2022, 01:16 AM   #45
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So they don't need to write letters, long hand, in triplicate, explaining why they had to take the shot?
No, they still do. I'm strict.
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Old May 11, 2022, 05:23 AM   #46
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No, they still do. I'm strict.
Can you use carbon paper and just push hard?
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Old May 11, 2022, 06:01 AM   #47
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I find it odd that a bow hunter who shoots a deer at 50 yards is considered a great hunter, but a rifle hunter who shoots a deer at 500 is considered irresponsible. IMO, the latter is a statistically higher kill. (I see nothing wrong with either)
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Old May 11, 2022, 06:11 AM   #48
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I find it odd that a bow hunter who shoots a deer at 50 yards is considered a great hunter, but a rifle hunter who shoots a deer at 500 is considered irresponsible. IMO, the latter is a statistically higher kill. (I see nothing wrong with either)
For me with archery im comfortable in the 50-60 yd range. Beyond that im not comfortable. Most of that is that i dont have a good place to regularly practice that far.

In my mind taking a 500yd rifle shot cleanly no warm up is similar to taking a 150yd shot with a bow. Sure it can be done, but you have to really have your skills honed and conditions have to be ideal. In either case i would do my best to get in closer if at all possible.
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Old May 11, 2022, 06:53 AM   #49
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For me with archery im comfortable in the 50-60 yd range. Beyond that im not comfortable. Most of that is that i dont have a good place to regularly practice that far.

In my mind taking a 500yd rifle shot cleanly no warm up is similar to taking a 150yd shot with a bow. Sure it can be done, but you have to really have your skills honed and conditions have to be ideal. In either case i would do my best to get in closer if at all possible.
I shoot both bow and rifle. To me, any day, any circumstance, warmed up, cold, etc.etc. the 500 yard rifle shot is always easier. Not that 50 is a hard shot with a bow, but 500 is a much easier shot with proper rifle, scope, and rests. I only shoot long out of my towers where I have proper rests. No way I would shoot 500 off hand or off a limb. Even with a 320 fps bow, I have gotten string jumped enough to turn a good shot into a dog's have to run the deer down shot.
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Old May 11, 2022, 07:52 AM   #50
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What funny to me you have someone shooting 300 Sherman and asking what bullets to use. The guy owns right to Sherman post on LRH site and gives load data plus bullets for different calibers chamber for the Sherman.
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