Rock Chucker died - what swage press to get? - Page 2

RC20 · April 25, 2018, 07:29 PM

Yep, I use Fluke meters at work. Had one worked on under warranty.

Outside of warranty I dropped it about 12 feet, broke the screen.

Sent it in with the details, they returned it under warranty. I have bought 4 or 5 fluke meters over the years (still have all of them).

I don't mind paying for my screw ups, but I appreciate it when they more than hold up their end.

sparkyv · April 25, 2018, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourbore

I suggest you ask RCBS for the frame. Your fault or not? I think not. It should not break unless you used a bar on the handle to increase leverage.

Point taken on needing a swag. So - fix the press AND get a new swaging press. The two are not mutually exclusive.

This is what i think, too.

**Mike Irwin** · April 26, 2018, 09:16 AM

Given that the press was originally designed for exactly what you were using it for, I agree that you need to contact RCBS.

There's been, unfortunately, a marked uptick in complaints about RCBS presses since they started going to frames cast in China. Some people are saying that the castings simply aren't made to the same strength or quality as the ones that used to be made in the US.

F. Guffey · April 26, 2018, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Some people are saying that the castings simply aren't made to the same strength

Again: The handle on one of my Rock Chuckers did not feel normal. I pushed it forward after raising the ram, it was then the ram slid out and hit the floor. I blamed my wife. I called RCBS; they said they would sent me a new one

and I asked "A new what?" They said they would send me a new ram and kit, I was happy with that but I was not going to give up the 'OLD' Rock Chucker. I will say if there was a press that had a good reason for coming apart it was that one.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · April 26, 2018, 09:35 AM

Quote:

They didn’t grumble about anything, which i thought was amazing.

I tried to get them to number the excuses, One day I told them my elephant stepped on it. The next time I called they did not ask how my elephant was doing.

F. Guffey

**Mike Irwin** · April 26, 2018, 09:36 AM

Again? Huh?

That's your first post/description of the issue in this thread.

And no where did I say or infer that the old, American made presses couldn't develop problems, just that I'm hearing more complaints about the new ones that I ever did about the old ones.

F. Guffey · April 26, 2018, 10:17 AM

Quote:

And no where did I say or infer that the old, American made presses couldn't develop problems, just that I'm hearing more complaints about the new ones that I ever did about the old ones.

Huh? nor did I say one of my old presses came apart because all I did with the press was stare at it. I was reminded of the Wonderful one horse shay or the Deacons Masterpiece. Because it came apart suddenly and without warning and all at once it lay all in a heap. Difference? THE old shay went 100 years and a day.

F. Guffey

**Mike Irwin** · April 26, 2018, 11:31 AM

OK, moving along from that conversational out of body experience into nihilism...

You decide what you're going to do, Grey Lion?

F. Guffey · April 26, 2018, 11:45 AM

http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1013.htm

F. Guffey

I had to cut and paste the link into web search.

briandg · April 26, 2018, 12:02 PM

I can't say that swaging the base of a 9mm case down for bullets is a good idea if you are compressing base and web. Otherwise I don't believe that pressing a core into the brass should cause a problem for a chucker.

Reloader270 · April 26, 2018, 01:09 PM

RCBS will replace it 100% guaranteed. It is a proud Company and that is why most of my reloading stuff is RCBS.

F. Guffey · April 26, 2018, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Otherwise I don't believe that pressing a core into the brass should cause a problem for a chucker.

I have three arbor presses that go from small, medium to large. I also have a strain gage, I do not find a lot of work for the strain gage but I have put a few presses into big binds, how big? I have locked them up to the point they would not move. I have swaged cases with drifts and hammers.

I have had a difficult time removing a few barrels, because of that I gave up on barrel wrenches and moved on to using a press. That required increasing the length of the handle on the receiver wrench. The only aluminum presses I have are Dillon presses, I do not place my Dillon presses into binds.

F. Guffey

FrankenMauser · April 26, 2018, 02:38 PM

Quote:

I can't say that swaging the base of a 9mm case down for bullets is a good idea if you are compressing base and web. Otherwise I don't believe that pressing a core into the brass should cause a problem for a chucker.

To be a bit more precise, but not obtusely pedantic:
In the world of bullet making, "swaging" actually refers to increasing the diameter of the core/bullet. When decreasing diameter, it is "drawing".
In other fields, the terms can mean other things - including exactly the opposite. But in bullet making, we 'swage' up and 'draw' down.

--

I agree, for the most part, that the RC IV ("RC Supreme") can take simple swaging. ...But I think anything more than turning rimfire hulls into varmint bullets is pushing the limits of the press. The earlier models of Rock Chuckers were designed to handle swaging, but I don't think that's true for the RC IV.

I also use an RC IV for swaging (.40 S&W to 44 caliber, and .45 Auto/.30-06 family cases to 475 caliber projectiles). But I keep in mind, every time that I do such, that some of the operations require a lot of pressure and the press is known for failing when pushed a little too hard.

That being said...
I think I've seen just as many reports of swaging dies popping (splitting) during swaging, as I have RC IVs failing. (Normally the link arms, as I said before.)

I would contact RCBS and at least talk to them about it. Perhaps a new frame could be purchased at cost. It's not likely - they'd probably insist on free replacement - but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

briandg · April 26, 2018, 04:15 PM

Frank, now that you mention it, I knew that, but the usual thing I hear is to Swage up or down, draw through a wire die, draw through a cupping die, etc always used by non-machinists, I now realize.

I have so many questions. When you use these 'bullets' you make, are they made and fired wit the case head intact?still seared with a dead primer? Backward or foreword through the die or barrel? Do you find a big increase in resistance as the web enters the die?

Seriously, I have never actually heard of this being done with centerfire Cases, rimfire only.

I have contemplated this possibility many times but various potential problems always came to mind. You should even be able to easily bond the core by fluxing the case interior and washing it with solder, the filling the case with hot lead. In theory, at least, that solder should melt and form a secondary bond to the hot lead, right?

FrankenMauser · April 26, 2018, 05:06 PM

Different processes require different approaches, but I use cases with (fired) primers in place. The primers typically blow out upon impact, though, as can be seen here.

It is quite disjointed, as I was figuring things out while I was sharing and didn't do the best job of organizing the information, but my thread on getting started with .40 S&W to .44 bullets should answer some of your questions.

Grey_Lion · April 26, 2018, 07:43 PM

So - while RCBS does offer a swaging ram - none of their current press models in production are actually rated for swaging pressures. They used to offer swaging presses - The Big Max RCBS is swage rated. The current rock chucker is officially not.

As noted in passing above - MOST "historical" swaging was pure cast lead - no jackets. Then gas checks came along. The jackets came along.

Large caliber bullets took more pressure than small ones.

Standard modern bullet presses work from 10000 to 50000 PSI - A steel swage press is expected to start at 60000 PSI and runs up to 125000 PSI for the really big stuff. That's why they are typically made of heavy cold rolled tool steel instead of cast iron.

So a .40 soft lead core in an annealed brass jacket - forming a hollow point in the core - I was likely hitting 70000 to 85000 psi pressures, maybe less.

The Rock Chucker failed at one of the pivot linkage points and the appx half inch thick cast iron collar at that point broke apart.

You can find the occasional used RCBS big max press on ebay from $350 to $800. I can't find my way clear to spending that on a used press no longer in production.

My search continues.

Grey_Lion · April 26, 2018, 08:02 PM

""Seriously, I have never actually heard of this being done with centerfire Cases, rimfire only.""

Take a look at this attachment -

From left to right -
Annealed & cleaned 9mm brass shell
soft lead 9mm cast round
bullet core - 9mm soft lead cast round forced nose down into the 9mm annealed shell with an expanding die
and the finished JHP - the core has been forced up into a .40 BTsniper JHP die with a ram in the press shell holder which smashes the core into the 9mm shell filling it out then forming the nose point & the nose cavity.

You can make either a creased JHP by putting the core up into a creasing die or forgo the creases. I prefer creased hollw points - they expand and perform FAR better than smooth hollow points.

As to the primers in the cores - I remove mine - As noted above those occasionally come loose during "production" - so I process them out of the brass - remove the variable.....

F. Guffey · April 27, 2018, 10:51 AM

The Special order catalog from RCBS list rams for Rock Chuckers, they lost two rams, one is a solid ram for bullet swaging , it does not have s slot cut into the top for primers. My Herter equipment comes with shell holders that are designed to be used when bullet swaging. I do not suggest all Herter presses should be used when swaging.

I believe the Special order catalog list parts for presses on page 11.

F. Guffey

Grey_Lion · April 27, 2018, 06:26 PM

I'm thinking of getting a walnut hill swage press and go that route. I've asked RCBS about a replacement frame for my broken press - to buy - not warranty - but they don't make them any more. It is a slightly older model. So its scrap parts for someone in the future.

I've looked at going the route to make one but that route almost always leads to a $1000+ project which may not work out.

I've looked into some who offer swage press kits and their threads almost ALWAYS back up with refund demands and shipping delay questions - no thanks

I like swaging my own rounds - went the cheap route on equipment not rated for it and made my first 600 or so JHP - time to get serious and pay the man for gear designed for the purpose.....

Grey_Lion · May 4, 2018, 08:39 PM

So Update -

Larry Blackmon did email me back but indicated that his press didn't handle the upside pressures of using a 9mm shell casing as the jacket.

Richard Corbin wrote me back and I'm moving ahead getting a Walnut Hill swage press.

As for the Rock Chucker - I may be able to machine a baseplate to replace the frame sections that broke and continue to use it for single stage loading - we'll see.

April 25, 2018, 07:29 PM	#26
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	Yep, I use Fluke meters at work. Had one worked on under warranty. Outside of warranty I dropped it about 12 feet, broke the screen. Sent it in with the details, they returned it under warranty. I have bought 4 or 5 fluke meters over the years (still have all of them). I don't mind paying for my screw ups, but I appreciate it when they more than hold up their end. __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

April 26, 2018, 09:16 AM	#28
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Given that the press was originally designed for exactly what you were using it for, I agree that you need to contact RCBS. There's been, unfortunately, a marked uptick in complaints about RCBS presses since they started going to frames cast in China. Some people are saying that the castings simply aren't made to the same strength or quality as the ones that used to be made in the US. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 26, 2018, 09:36 AM	#31
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Again? Huh? That's your first post/description of the issue in this thread. And no where did I say or infer that the old, American made presses couldn't develop problems, just that I'm hearing more complaints about the new ones that I ever did about the old ones. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 26, 2018, 11:31 AM	#33
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	OK, moving along from that conversational out of body experience into nihilism... You decide what you're going to do, Grey Lion? __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 26, 2018, 12:02 PM	#35
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	I can't say that swaging the base of a 9mm case down for bullets is a good idea if you are compressing base and web. Otherwise I don't believe that pressing a core into the brass should cause a problem for a chucker. __________________ None.

April 26, 2018, 11:45 AM	#34
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1013.htm F. Guffey I had to cut and paste the link into web search.

April 26, 2018, 01:09 PM	#36
Reloader270 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2015 Location: South Africa Posts: 138	RCBS will replace it 100% guaranteed. It is a proud Company and that is why most of my reloading stuff is RCBS.

April 26, 2018, 04:15 PM	#39
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	Frank, now that you mention it, I knew that, but the usual thing I hear is to Swage up or down, draw through a wire die, draw through a cupping die, etc always used by non-machinists, I now realize. I have so many questions. When you use these 'bullets' you make, are they made and fired wit the case head intact?still seared with a dead primer? Backward or foreword through the die or barrel? Do you find a big increase in resistance as the web enters the die? Seriously, I have never actually heard of this being done with centerfire Cases, rimfire only. I have contemplated this possibility many times but various potential problems always came to mind. You should even be able to easily bond the core by fluxing the case interior and washing it with solder, the filling the case with hot lead. In theory, at least, that solder should melt and form a secondary bond to the hot lead, right? __________________ None.

April 26, 2018, 05:06 PM	#40
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Different processes require different approaches, but I use cases with (fired) primers in place. The primers typically blow out upon impact, though, as can be seen here. It is quite disjointed, as I was figuring things out while I was sharing and didn't do the best job of organizing the information, but my thread on getting started with .40 S&W to .44 bullets should answer some of your questions. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

April 26, 2018, 07:43 PM	#41
Grey_Lion Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Location: Baton Rouge - Louisiana Posts: 407	So - while RCBS does offer a swaging ram - none of their current press models in production are actually rated for swaging pressures. They used to offer swaging presses - The Big Max RCBS is swage rated. The current rock chucker is officially not. As noted in passing above - MOST "historical" swaging was pure cast lead - no jackets. Then gas checks came along. The jackets came along. Large caliber bullets took more pressure than small ones. Standard modern bullet presses work from 10000 to 50000 PSI - A steel swage press is expected to start at 60000 PSI and runs up to 125000 PSI for the really big stuff. That's why they are typically made of heavy cold rolled tool steel instead of cast iron. So a .40 soft lead core in an annealed brass jacket - forming a hollow point in the core - I was likely hitting 70000 to 85000 psi pressures, maybe less. The Rock Chucker failed at one of the pivot linkage points and the appx half inch thick cast iron collar at that point broke apart. You can find the occasional used RCBS big max press on ebay from $350 to $800. I can't find my way clear to spending that on a used press no longer in production. My search continues.

April 27, 2018, 10:51 AM	#43
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	The Special order catalog from RCBS list rams for Rock Chuckers, they lost two rams, one is a solid ram for bullet swaging , it does not have s slot cut into the top for primers. My Herter equipment comes with shell holders that are designed to be used when bullet swaging. I do not suggest all Herter presses should be used when swaging. I believe the Special order catalog list parts for presses on page 11. F. Guffey

April 27, 2018, 06:26 PM	#44
Grey_Lion Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Location: Baton Rouge - Louisiana Posts: 407	I'm thinking of getting a walnut hill swage press and go that route. I've asked RCBS about a replacement frame for my broken press - to buy - not warranty - but they don't make them any more. It is a slightly older model. So its scrap parts for someone in the future. I've looked at going the route to make one but that route almost always leads to a $1000+ project which may not work out. I've looked into some who offer swage press kits and their threads almost ALWAYS back up with refund demands and shipping delay questions - no thanks I like swaging my own rounds - went the cheap route on equipment not rated for it and made my first 600 or so JHP - time to get serious and pay the man for gear designed for the purpose.....

May 4, 2018, 08:39 PM	#45
Grey_Lion Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Location: Baton Rouge - Louisiana Posts: 407	So Update - Larry Blackmon did email me back but indicated that his press didn't handle the upside pressures of using a 9mm shell casing as the jacket. Richard Corbin wrote me back and I'm moving ahead getting a Walnut Hill swage press. As for the Rock Chucker - I may be able to machine a baseplate to replace the frame sections that broke and continue to use it for single stage loading - we'll see.