Rifle cartridges in handguns......

Bob Wright · April 13, 2018, 11:35 AM

I have read several remarks concerning the recoil of the .30-30 when fired in the Thompson Contender, generally to the effect the recoil is much greater than, say, the .44 Magnum.

I'm certainly no expert on the Thompson Contender, but many years ago I was introduced to that pistol for the first time. My hosts had three frames and a box full of barrels. They started me off on the .30-30, and I tried the .30-40 Krag, .35 Remington, .338 Woodswalker, .43 JDJ, .444 Marlin, and .45-70.

My impression at the time was that felt recoil of the smaller calibers was much more pleasant than my .44 Magnum or .45 Colt in my Rugers and Smiths. I attributed this to the fact that I was shooting bullets of only 150 grs. ~ 200 Grs. weight as opposed to 250 gr. ~ 350 grs. bullets in my revolvers. I recall thinking that the .30-40 Krag was a dandy groundhog gun.

Now when I got up into the 350 gr. ~ 500 gr. bullets in those pistols, recoil became really noticeable. I formed the opinion that day that increasing bullet weight affected recoil more than increases in velocity.

My impression from that experience. Yours may differ.

Bob Wright

Lohman446 · April 13, 2018, 11:57 AM

No personal experience

When I look at discussions about full fledged rifle cartridges (like the 30-30) in handguns all I can think of is "oww"

I'm going to take the word of those of you willing to try that "its not that bad" but I'm not going to try.

T. O'Heir · April 13, 2018, 12:12 PM

The recoil of the .30-30 is excessive for the power of the cartridge out of a Win 94. However, it's about the weight of the rifle or the Thompson Contender that does that. A 94 weighs about 7 pounds. A 14" Contender weighs 5.5 pounds.
"...increasing bullet weight affected recoil more than increases in velocity..." That's simple physics. It's not just an opinion. It's a law.

BBarn · April 13, 2018, 12:41 PM

My TC handgun experience is very limited. The 14" in 223 had rather mild recoil with considerable muzzle blast. The 460 S&W had a generous amount of both.

stinkeypete · April 13, 2018, 01:02 PM

In my experience, people don’t sufficiently take in to account the mass of the pistol, the barrel length, or how well fit the grip is.

While the simple physics of “how much” recoil there is is a start, the more advanced physics is about how we feel that recoil: how much impulse there is, how the handgun is rotating.

So a Contender with a 16” barrel and a nice heavy scope on it will tame a lot of recoil- and follow up shots are not an issue.

When all is said and done, my favorite load for t/c pistol was a half jacket 100 grain plinker over about 4 grains of bullseye, with some polyester fluff to keep the powder from rattling around. I never noticed a difference in fluff vs no fluff- but I had the stuff around so I used it.

That means for me, any little pistol caliber would have probably been better for shooting tin cans and rabbits- but I learned a lot and still like the idea of “do it all” as well as I find I’m an old grump and like the classics... and 30-30 is a classic.

jmr40 · April 13, 2018, 01:16 PM

Recoil can easily be calculated. It is a combination of:

Bullet weight
Bullet Velocity
Weight of powder charge
Weight of the firearm

Plug the numbers here and you will know, instead of guessing. The mind will play tricks on you. Velocity plays a bigger part than most think, as does the weight of the powder charge which some never think about.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

Since handguns have shorter barrels (and less velocity) and are lighter than rifles the numbers may be different than rifles.

Assuming a 240 gr bullet at 1500 fps in a 44 vs a 150 gr bullet at 2000 fps from a 30-30 in equal weight rifles recoil will be nearly identical. About 1/2 ft lb more recoil for the 44.

But those numbers are just guesses. Plug in your own numbers to get a more accurate calculation.

Steve in PA · April 13, 2018, 03:43 PM

I have several 14" T/C barrels; .223, .44 Mag and 7-30 Waters. Never found recoil to be an issue.

Cheapshooter · April 13, 2018, 04:06 PM

With the Contender being an ideal "handloaders" platform recoil can be up, down, and all around. Depending on what the shooter, and handloader wants it to be.

FrankenMauser · April 13, 2018, 05:01 PM

Calculations completely aside...
When I think about increasing recoil, velocity is more present in my mind than bullet weight for a given cartridge.
But when bullet weight does come back into the picture, I don't think of 'heavies' being the enemy. I find light-for-caliber bullets at max velocity to generally be more offensive than heavy-for-caliber bullets at their max velocity.
Case in point: I don't like 180 gr bullets in .44 Mag. I find the loads to be snappy and irritating. ...But I'll shoot 310s out of the same revolvers all day long. On paper, the 310s may have more recoil energy; but it "feels" better.
Now that I have a Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag, I can finally dispose of all the 180s that I've accidentally collected, or been gifted over the last 20 years. In THAT, they feel great.

And, since we're here, someone has to drop a link to the Cockweasel.

**44 AMP** · April 13, 2018, 05:28 PM

Weight and speed of the bullet generate the recoil force, you can calculate that. Size, weigh, and shape of the gun generate how we feel the recoil force, and that is an individually subjective matter.

I do wonder (besides comfort) why the recoil of a contender matters. As long as it doesn't wack you in the head, or jump out of your hands, does it matter? There is no "fast follow up shot" possible, no matter what the recoil level is.

The Contender, with a 10" barrel, while as large or larger than most revolvers and semis is also lighter than most of them, especially the magnums.

The first time I fired my 10" octagon "pencil" barrel .44 Mag at the range the recoil was so heavy and unexpected that I said a bad word, out loud! (and rather loudly..

)

Lots more jump than my other .44s and more than my 14" .45-70!

Of course, my .45-70 barrel is longer, and heavier, and has a lot of little holes around the muzzle end that might have something to do with it having less jump than my 10" lightweight .44 barrel...

Doyle · April 14, 2018, 09:58 AM

I still have a 7mm-08 barrel for my Encore and I recently sold a Remington XP100R in .260. In both, the recoil is noticeable but not terribly unpleasant.

Sharkbite · April 14, 2018, 10:30 AM

The 300 whisper (now called 300blackout) was originally designed around the Contender platform. Super efficient out of the shorter barrels. It will equal the 30-30 in all respects out of the 10” barrels, with greatly reduced muzzle blast.

Ricklin · April 14, 2018, 10:38 AM

I have an immaculate T/C Contender. I think it's a pretty early one. It's is in .44 mag, I have yet to succumb to the barrel thing. I will add some over the coming years, for right now it's a .44 mag.

The early Contenders have grips that are rather pretty, but they do not manage recoil well at all. The issue is they do not spread the recoil out at all. The back edge of the grip is not as rounded as it should be. or something like that.

Sure would love to hear some thoughts from the Contender crowd here as to what grips they prefer. I have been looking for something more comfy.

What say you TFL?

**44 AMP** · April 14, 2018, 10:06 PM

I say Pachmayr

(or however you spell it, the rubber ones..

)

Viper225 · April 14, 2018, 11:43 PM

I have been working with my 357 Maximum barrels quite a bit along with my 6.5x30JDJ and 35 Bullberry. The 6.5x30JDJ does not recoil nearly as hard with 107-120 grain bullets as the 357 Maximum loaded for a Contender and CVA Scout, or the 35 Bullberry both shooting 180 XTP's. NOTE: The 357 Maximum loads are in excess of book loads which I feel are watered down to prevent hurting a 357 Max Revolver if one accidentally was fired in it.
I agree Bullet Weight seems to be the biggest factor in rifle chamberings.

Bob R

buck460XVR · April 15, 2018, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmr40

Recoil can easily be calculated. It is a combination of:

Bullet weight
Bullet Velocity
Weight of powder charge
Weight of the firearm

Plug the numbers here and you will know, instead of guessing. The mind will play tricks on you. Velocity plays a bigger part than most think, as does the weight of the powder charge which some never think about.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

^^^Yep, and to add to that, felt recoil can be impacted by how well the firearm fits your hand or your shoulder.

Weight of the firearm makes a huge difference. A prime example is the .454 Casull. When shot outta a lighter weight Ruger frame, it can have brutal recoil and is one reason the caliber has struggled over the years. Shoot it out of a heavier X-Frame and it's a reduced load. It's not always the caliber that makes for a pleasant or unpleasant shooter, many times it's the platform. I have an old M-1917 ought-six I use for hunting deer. I can shoot it all day in shirtsleeves, no problem. Shoot the same loads from my son's lightweight Mountain Rifle and I don't last long. Heavier bullets are harder to push and thus it's understandable why they can make recoil harsher. Kinda what Newton's laws are all about.

HiBC · April 15, 2018, 10:17 AM

I have a 14 in bbl MOA Max handgun in 260 Rem. I load 120 gr bullets to 2500 fps +
This handgun is a true falling block made of 17-4 ph. Its strong.

Grip is a broad single action plow handle.
I do get muzzle rise!! Quite a bit. But the hand/palm does not suffer . I don't have a problem with "hearing footsteps" flinchitis.

I don't question the laws of physics.Bullet weight and velocity matter.

IMO,charge weight,bullet base surface area,pressure curve,(rate) pressure(peak) all come into play,as do gun weight,gun geometry and grip/hand interface.
And also whether the shooter absorbs the recoil as an oak tree or a willow tree.

Yes,Newton matters! But in a rifle,same gun weight and load,you will notice the difference between a crescent butt and a shotgun butt.

How the recoil energy transfers to the shooter makes a difference.

Butt plate vs pistol grip...can be reasonably similar for area.

Often the shoulder is more "oak tree" and the handgunners hand is more "willow".

Hammerhead · April 16, 2018, 01:42 PM

My buddy has the Contender. 30-30 is a breeze compared to 44 Rem mag in the Contender. Really surprised me.

Viper225 · April 19, 2018, 12:23 AM

A buddy had a 10" 30-30 barrel for his Contender years ago. That was one viscous piece of machinery to fire.

Bob R

BBarn · April 19, 2018, 06:11 AM

Calculated recoil doesn't necessarily reflect perceived recoil. Gun design, ergonomics, and muzzle blast greatly affect perceived recoil, but those factors are ignored in recoil calculations.

black mamba · April 20, 2018, 09:35 AM

I have an Encore pistol, with both 10" unported 44 mag and 14" ported 308 Winchester barrels. Shooting heavily loaded 300 grain bullets in the 44 and standard 50K loads with 165s in the ported 308, the recoil is very similar. I shoot a lot of heavy bullet big bore handguns, so am not very recoil sensitive, but because of the weight, neither of these have bad recoil. Not to compare with a Ruger single action shooting 345s at 1200 fps.

buck460XVR · April 20, 2018, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BBarn

Calculated recoil doesn't necessarily reflect perceived recoil. Gun design, ergonomics, and muzzle blast greatly affect perceived recoil, but those factors are ignored in recoil calculations.

Maybe not, but it is relative. Despite the "Gun design, ergonomics, and muzzle blast", the greater the calculated recoil, the greater the perceived recoil in said firearm. Kinda the idea behind recoil pads and rubber handgun grips.

saleen322 · April 21, 2018, 08:44 AM

I have a 10" contender barrel in 30-30 that was with my used contender when I bought it over 30 years ago. I used it in silhouette until I got a 7 TCU. Recoil never seemed excessive with the 30-30 but getting a good, accurate load in the 10" barrel did take some time.

223 shooter · April 22, 2018, 09:32 AM

Quote:

30-30 is a breeze compared to 44 Rem mag in the Contender

I had a 10" Contender 44 Mag - could not believe the amount of felt recoil , PAINFUL would be the best way to describe it. I was wondering why the seller was so willing to trade for my 22lr barrel.

NH15-45 · April 22, 2018, 05:13 PM

I had JD Jones re-chamber my 10" 44 Mag to 444 Marlin. Recoil is stiff, but manageable, with Pachmayr Grips.

April 13, 2018, 11:35 AM	#1
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	Rifle cartridges in handguns...... I have read several remarks concerning the recoil of the .30-30 when fired in the Thompson Contender, generally to the effect the recoil is much greater than, say, the .44 Magnum. I'm certainly no expert on the Thompson Contender, but many years ago I was introduced to that pistol for the first time. My hosts had three frames and a box full of barrels. They started me off on the .30-30, and I tried the .30-40 Krag, .35 Remington, .338 Woodswalker, .43 JDJ, .444 Marlin, and .45-70. My impression at the time was that felt recoil of the smaller calibers was much more pleasant than my .44 Magnum or .45 Colt in my Rugers and Smiths. I attributed this to the fact that I was shooting bullets of only 150 grs. ~ 200 Grs. weight as opposed to 250 gr. ~ 350 grs. bullets in my revolvers. I recall thinking that the .30-40 Krag was a dandy groundhog gun. Now when I got up into the 350 gr. ~ 500 gr. bullets in those pistols, recoil became really noticeable. I formed the opinion that day that increasing bullet weight affected recoil more than increases in velocity. My impression from that experience. Yours may differ. Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.

April 13, 2018, 12:12 PM	#3
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	The recoil of the .30-30 is excessive for the power of the cartridge out of a Win 94. However, it's about the weight of the rifle or the Thompson Contender that does that. A 94 weighs about 7 pounds. A 14" Contender weighs 5.5 pounds. "...increasing bullet weight affected recoil more than increases in velocity..." That's simple physics. It's not just an opinion. It's a law. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

April 13, 2018, 01:16 PM	#6
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	Recoil can easily be calculated. It is a combination of: Bullet weight Bullet Velocity Weight of powder charge Weight of the firearm Plug the numbers here and you will know, instead of guessing. The mind will play tricks on you. Velocity plays a bigger part than most think, as does the weight of the powder charge which some never think about. http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp Since handguns have shorter barrels (and less velocity) and are lighter than rifles the numbers may be different than rifles. Assuming a 240 gr bullet at 1500 fps in a 44 vs a 150 gr bullet at 2000 fps from a 30-30 in equal weight rifles recoil will be nearly identical. About 1/2 ft lb more recoil for the 44. But those numbers are just guesses. Plug in your own numbers to get a more accurate calculation. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

April 13, 2018, 03:43 PM	#7
Steve in PA Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 1999 Location: Northeastern PA Posts: 756	I have several 14" T/C barrels; .223, .44 Mag and 7-30 Waters. Never found recoil to be an issue. __________________ Steve

April 13, 2018, 04:06 PM	#8
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	With the Contender being an ideal "handloaders" platform recoil can be up, down, and all around. Depending on what the shooter, and handloader wants it to be. __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

April 13, 2018, 11:57 AM	#2
Lohman446 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2016 Posts: 2,192	No personal experience When I look at discussions about full fledged rifle cartridges (like the 30-30) in handguns all I can think of is "oww" I'm going to take the word of those of you willing to try that "its not that bad" but I'm not going to try.

April 13, 2018, 12:41 PM	#4
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	My TC handgun experience is very limited. The 14" in 223 had rather mild recoil with considerable muzzle blast. The 460 S&W had a generous amount of both.

April 13, 2018, 01:02 PM	#5
stinkeypete Senior Member Join Date: July 22, 2010 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 1,293	In my experience, people don’t sufficiently take in to account the mass of the pistol, the barrel length, or how well fit the grip is. While the simple physics of “how much” recoil there is is a start, the more advanced physics is about how we feel that recoil: how much impulse there is, how the handgun is rotating. So a Contender with a 16” barrel and a nice heavy scope on it will tame a lot of recoil- and follow up shots are not an issue. When all is said and done, my favorite load for t/c pistol was a half jacket 100 grain plinker over about 4 grains of bullseye, with some polyester fluff to keep the powder from rattling around. I never noticed a difference in fluff vs no fluff- but I had the stuff around so I used it. That means for me, any little pistol caliber would have probably been better for shooting tin cans and rabbits- but I learned a lot and still like the idea of “do it all” as well as I find I’m an old grump and like the classics... and 30-30 is a classic.

April 13, 2018, 05:01 PM	#9
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,424	Calculations completely aside... When I think about increasing recoil, velocity is more present in my mind than bullet weight for a given cartridge. But when bullet weight does come back into the picture, I don't think of 'heavies' being the enemy. I find light-for-caliber bullets at max velocity to generally be more offensive than heavy-for-caliber bullets at their max velocity. Case in point: I don't like 180 gr bullets in .44 Mag. I find the loads to be snappy and irritating. ...But I'll shoot 310s out of the same revolvers all day long. On paper, the 310s may have more recoil energy; but it "feels" better. Now that I have a Marlin 1894 in .44 Mag, I can finally dispose of all the 180s that I've accidentally collected, or been gifted over the last 20 years. In THAT, they feel great. And, since we're here, someone has to drop a link to the Cockweasel. __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

April 13, 2018, 05:28 PM	#10
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	Weight and speed of the bullet generate the recoil force, you can calculate that. Size, weigh, and shape of the gun generate how we feel the recoil force, and that is an individually subjective matter. I do wonder (besides comfort) why the recoil of a contender matters. As long as it doesn't wack you in the head, or jump out of your hands, does it matter? There is no "fast follow up shot" possible, no matter what the recoil level is. The Contender, with a 10" barrel, while as large or larger than most revolvers and semis is also lighter than most of them, especially the magnums. The first time I fired my 10" octagon "pencil" barrel .44 Mag at the range the recoil was so heavy and unexpected that I said a bad word, out loud! (and rather loudly..) Lots more jump than my other .44s and more than my 14" .45-70! Of course, my .45-70 barrel is longer, and heavier, and has a lot of little holes around the muzzle end that might have something to do with it having less jump than my 10" lightweight .44 barrel... __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 14, 2018, 09:58 AM	#11
Doyle Senior Member Join Date: June 20, 2007 Location: Rainbow City, Alabama Posts: 7,167	I still have a 7mm-08 barrel for my Encore and I recently sold a Remington XP100R in .260. In both, the recoil is noticeable but not terribly unpleasant.

April 14, 2018, 10:30 AM	#12
Sharkbite Senior Member Join Date: November 4, 2013 Location: Western slope of Colorado Posts: 3,679	The 300 whisper (now called 300blackout) was originally designed around the Contender platform. Super efficient out of the shorter barrels. It will equal the 30-30 in all respects out of the 10” barrels, with greatly reduced muzzle blast.

April 14, 2018, 10:38 AM	#13
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,013	Grips I have an immaculate T/C Contender. I think it's a pretty early one. It's is in .44 mag, I have yet to succumb to the barrel thing. I will add some over the coming years, for right now it's a .44 mag. The early Contenders have grips that are rather pretty, but they do not manage recoil well at all. The issue is they do not spread the recoil out at all. The back edge of the grip is not as rounded as it should be. or something like that. Sure would love to hear some thoughts from the Contender crowd here as to what grips they prefer. I have been looking for something more comfy. What say you TFL? __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

April 14, 2018, 10:06 PM	#14
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,833	I say Pachmayr (or however you spell it, the rubber ones..) __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

April 14, 2018, 11:43 PM	#15
Viper225 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2009 Location: SC Missouri Posts: 663	I have been working with my 357 Maximum barrels quite a bit along with my 6.5x30JDJ and 35 Bullberry. The 6.5x30JDJ does not recoil nearly as hard with 107-120 grain bullets as the 357 Maximum loaded for a Contender and CVA Scout, or the 35 Bullberry both shooting 180 XTP's. NOTE: The 357 Maximum loads are in excess of book loads which I feel are watered down to prevent hurting a 357 Max Revolver if one accidentally was fired in it. I agree Bullet Weight seems to be the biggest factor in rifle chamberings. Bob R

April 15, 2018, 10:17 AM	#17
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,286	I have a 14 in bbl MOA Max handgun in 260 Rem. I load 120 gr bullets to 2500 fps + This handgun is a true falling block made of 17-4 ph. Its strong. Grip is a broad single action plow handle. I do get muzzle rise!! Quite a bit. But the hand/palm does not suffer . I don't have a problem with "hearing footsteps" flinchitis. I don't question the laws of physics.Bullet weight and velocity matter. IMO,charge weight,bullet base surface area,pressure curve,(rate) pressure(peak) all come into play,as do gun weight,gun geometry and grip/hand interface. And also whether the shooter absorbs the recoil as an oak tree or a willow tree. Yes,Newton matters! But in a rifle,same gun weight and load,you will notice the difference between a crescent butt and a shotgun butt. How the recoil energy transfers to the shooter makes a difference. Butt plate vs pistol grip...can be reasonably similar for area. Often the shoulder is more "oak tree" and the handgunners hand is more "willow".

April 16, 2018, 01:42 PM	#18
Hammerhead Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,432	My buddy has the Contender. 30-30 is a breeze compared to 44 Rem mag in the Contender. Really surprised me.

April 19, 2018, 12:23 AM	#19
Viper225 Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2009 Location: SC Missouri Posts: 663	A buddy had a 10" 30-30 barrel for his Contender years ago. That was one viscous piece of machinery to fire. Bob R

April 19, 2018, 06:11 AM	#20
BBarn Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2015 Posts: 887	Calculated recoil doesn't necessarily reflect perceived recoil. Gun design, ergonomics, and muzzle blast greatly affect perceived recoil, but those factors are ignored in recoil calculations. Last edited by BBarn; April 19, 2018 at 06:48 AM.

April 20, 2018, 09:35 AM	#21
black mamba Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2011 Location: SW Florida Posts: 890	I have an Encore pistol, with both 10" unported 44 mag and 14" ported 308 Winchester barrels. Shooting heavily loaded 300 grain bullets in the 44 and standard 50K loads with 165s in the ported 308, the recoil is very similar. I shoot a lot of heavy bullet big bore handguns, so am not very recoil sensitive, but because of the weight, neither of these have bad recoil. Not to compare with a Ruger single action shooting 345s at 1200 fps.

April 21, 2018, 08:44 AM	#23
saleen322 Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2010 Posts: 778	I have a 10" contender barrel in 30-30 that was with my used contender when I bought it over 30 years ago. I used it in silhouette until I got a 7 TCU. Recoil never seemed excessive with the 30-30 but getting a good, accurate load in the 10" barrel did take some time.

April 22, 2018, 05:13 PM	#25
NH15-45 Member Join Date: April 15, 2018 Posts: 15	I had JD Jones re-chamber my 10" 44 Mag to 444 Marlin. Recoil is stiff, but manageable, with Pachmayr Grips.