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Old August 4, 2019, 01:24 AM   #1
Metal god
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Giving sister a gun in another state ???

So I had been planning on sending my sister a handgun from a FFL here in CA to an FFL in Montana . I never really got around to it and now I'm going to be in Montana for a short stay . Can I just take her the handgun and do a PPT at a FFL in Montana ? Or is there an easier way with less fuss ?

Thanks MG
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Old August 4, 2019, 01:29 AM   #2
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Interstate transfers of handguns must go through an FFL in the recipient's state of residence. As far as I know, you should be able to transport it there yourself and go with her to an FFL for the transfer, but I would advise checking with the FFL beforehand to verify whether or not he'll accept a handgun not coming from a distributor or other FFL.
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Old August 4, 2019, 02:00 AM   #3
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It's good advice to check with the FFL beforehand, to make sure they're comfortable with the transfer.
Legally, however, there's no problem.

No matter how you do it, the handgun must be transferred through an FFL as long as your states of residency are different.
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Old August 4, 2019, 05:03 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Metal god View Post
So I had been planning on sending my sister a handgun from a FFL here in CA to an FFL in Montana . I never really got around to it and now I'm going to be in Montana for a short stay . Can I just take her the handgun and do a PPT at a FFL in Montana ? Or is there an easier way with less fuss ?

Thanks MG
Earlier posters are correct. Handgun transfers must go through an FFL in the transferee's state of residence. 18 USC (a)(3) and (a)(5) make it illegal for the transfer to happen anywhere but at a Montana FFL. I'm not licensed in MT, but I know of no MT law that would prevent you from just taking the gun there for a transfer. A quick call to the FFL near her (to find out what all he or she would need to see to prove your residence, ownership of the gun, etc) might save you a lot of hassle in this.
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Old August 4, 2019, 02:07 PM   #5
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Thanks guys that helps .

MG
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Old August 4, 2019, 07:32 PM   #6
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Check on the laws pertaining to gifting a firearm to a relative-you may not have to do a transfer if it is a gift-just sayin
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Old August 4, 2019, 08:18 PM   #7
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Check on the laws pertaining to gifting a firearm to a relative-you may not have to do a transfer if it is a gift-just sayin
____
Not true. There is no provision in federal law for a gift across state lines without being a transfer subject to Form 4473.
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Old August 4, 2019, 08:25 PM   #8
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Not true. There is no provision in federal law for a gift across state lines without being a transfer subject to Form 4473.
There's one provision, but it's a little extreme. (leave it to her in your will) Your executor hands her the gun and she takes it home. But you have to die for it to work.
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Old August 4, 2019, 08:41 PM   #9
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There's one provision, but it's a little extreme. (leave it to her in your will) Your executor hands her the gun and she takes it home. But you have to die for it to work.
Yes, but that isn't a gift. It's an inheritance. Minor technical difference.
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Old August 4, 2019, 08:46 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Doyle
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There's one provision, but it's a little extreme. (leave it to her in your will) Your executor hands her the gun and she takes it home. But you have to die for it to work.
Yes, but that isn't a gift. It's an inheritance. Minor technical difference.
That, to me, is not a "minor" technical difference.
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Old August 5, 2019, 04:36 AM   #11
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Check on the laws pertaining to gifting a firearm to a relative-you may not have to do a transfer if it is a gift-just sayin
Wrong.
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Old August 5, 2019, 04:58 AM   #12
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But you have to die for it to work.
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That, to me, is not a "minor" technical difference.
LMAO , yeah I don't care that much if she ever gets it !
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Old August 13, 2019, 12:24 PM   #13
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Ok , here in Montana but my sister does not have the proper ID needed Can I transfer to anyone up here ? Meaning go to an ffl and transfer it to her boyfriend . They then can do what they want after , I just need it out of my name if it’s no longer going to be in my possession ??

I want to be totally legal here and got to thinking I should be able to transfer it whom ever i want that will pass the NICS ??? What that person does with the firearm is not my problem ????
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Old August 13, 2019, 01:28 PM   #14
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Ok , here in Montana but my sister does not have the proper ID needed Can I transfer to anyone up here ? Meaning go to an ffl and transfer it to her boyfriend . They then can do what they want after , I just need it out of my name if it’s no longer going to be in my possession ??

I want to be totally legal here and got to thinking I should be able to transfer it whom ever i want that will pass the NICS ??? What that person does with the firearm is not my problem ????
what?!
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Old August 13, 2019, 01:31 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Metal god View Post
Ok , here in Montana but my sister does not have the proper ID needed Can I transfer to anyone up here ? Meaning go to an ffl and transfer it to her boyfriend . They then can do what they want after , I just need it out of my name if it’s no longer going to be in my possession ??

I want to be totally legal here and got to thinking I should be able to transfer it whom ever i want that will pass the NICS ??? What that person does with the firearm is not my problem ????
I think they would consider the boyfriend a straw purchaser and you would be in a lot of legal trouble for selling to someone you knew or should have known was a straw purchaser.
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Old August 13, 2019, 01:52 PM   #16
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She moved here a couple years ago from Oregon and never got here Montana id . She needs proof of residency .
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Old August 13, 2019, 04:39 PM   #17
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She moved here a couple years ago from Oregon and never got here Montana id . She needs proof of residency .
Montana's requirements to get a real ID DL, or non-DL real ID,are not onerous. I get that she might not have lease in her name, possibly no utilities or no job either, but she receives no mail at her Montana address at all?

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Any of the following, dated or issued not more than four months prior to application:
a payroll check or payroll check stub
a bank statement
a utility bill or utility hook-up order
canceled mail addressed to the applicant
A written statement from the applicant’s parent, guardian or adult child that the applicant resides at the same address as the parent, guardian or adult child, along with a copy of a document permitted under this rule that shows the Montana residential address of the applicant’s parent, guardian or adult child

A Montana voter registration card

A receipt for personal or real property taxes paid within the last year to the state of Montana or a Montana county

A U.S. or Montana income tax return for the previous year

Home mortgage or equity loan papers showing the applicant’s name and residential address – a rural address will be accepted when there is no other physical address

Any primary or secondary document as listed in Administrative Rules of Montana 23.3.131

Note: if the applicant is homeless, a descriptive address of the location where the applicant actually resides, e.g., “under the west end of the East Street bridge.” The applicant must also provide a separate mailing address and present a written statement from a social service agency on the agency’s letterhead verifying the applicant’s homeless status and the descriptive address given by the applicant
https://dojmt.gov/driving/required-docs/

Your sister has a boyfriend. Someone is raising the ease and reduced red tape hassle of of considering getting him involved.

Glaring red flag? maybe no, but an orange warning flag is certainly there.

1) If your sister is the intended recipient of the gun you should not really be thinking about alternatives involving other people other than an FFL. You and your sister and her boyfriend could be exposed, and consider that your sister may no nothing about gun laws and you could be putting her in legal jeopardy.

2) alternately, the boyfriend could be the intended final recipient and a prohibited person. this could put your sister at a lot of risk. A lot of straws are girlfriends acquiring for boyfriends. So many don't know records of people they are dating, or even married to in some cases, or believe/think/convince themselves their boyfriends record is somehow unfair, and or that people are threatening him and therefore a straw is not a bad thing. It is.

I am not saying this is the case or likely to be so, but don't discount the risks to you and your sister.
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Old August 13, 2019, 05:44 PM   #18
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Ok , here in Montana but my sister does not have the proper ID needed
If your sister doesn’t have a Montana-issued photo ID or drivers license that shows her current address, then she can use a combination of any government-issued photo ID and another government-issued document with her name and current address on it. For example, she can use a valid passport combined with a vehicle registration that has her name and current address.

From the instructions on the 4473:

“Question 18.b. Supplemental Documentation: Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the law. The required valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of transferee/buyer may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee's/buyer's residence address. This supplemental documentation should be recorded in question 18.b., with the issuing authority and type of identification presented.”
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Old August 13, 2019, 06:28 PM   #19
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She moved here a couple years ago from Oregon and never got here Montana id . She needs proof of residency .
Your sister doesn't drive?
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Old August 13, 2019, 08:53 PM   #20
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Lol yes she drives , ever heard of reciprocity They live in the boondocks on a reservation and use a PO box for all mail . I know you all think it sounds odd but not everyone lives in the modern world . No TV , internet , microwave here among other things . It’s a simpler life out here . It's nice for the few days I’ve been here but it can get frustrating not having some of the things I’ve always considered normal day to day stuff .

She went down and got proof of residency today but now needs to find here ss card or birth certificate. I don’t know what all is required for her to get what she needs , I’m leaving that up to here . Thank god I never mailed it to an FFL like I had intended , that would have been disastrous .

Quote:
A Montana voter registration card
That’s what she went and got today , can she use that and her current valid Oregon DL to do the transfer?
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Old August 13, 2019, 11:27 PM   #21
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Lol yes she drives , ever heard of reciprocity
Reciprocity is when one state recognizes the driver's license of a resident of another state. You said your sister has lived in Montana for two years. That makes her a resident of Montana, and NOT a resident of Oregon.

Your sister is probably breaking Montana law by not having a Montana driver's license, and she's probably also breaking the law of Oregon by continuing to hold it even though she's not a resident of that state.

I think you should take your gun back to California with you. This whole thing is starting to sound like a slow motion train wreck.

Quote:
That’s what she went and got today , can she use that and her current valid Oregon DL to do the transfer?
It's handgun. The FFL can't transfer a handgun to someone who is not a resident of Montana. An Oregon driver's license isn't going to help.

And how is the Oregon driver's license "valid" if she's not a resident of Oregon?
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Old August 13, 2019, 11:53 PM   #22
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It's handgun. The FFL can't transfer a handgun to someone who is not a resident of Montana. An Oregon driver's license isn't going to help.
I was thinking the voter registration card proves residency and the “valid” Oregon photo ID proves who she is . I know even Im not buying it but thought maybe it would work . I mean she said to get her voter registration card today she just filled out the info ( correctly) and didn’t need to show and or prove any of it and now she has a valid proof of residency oh and can vote . So you never know how this stuff goes
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Old August 14, 2019, 07:40 AM   #23
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Yes, a valid Oregon driver’s license combined with a Montana voter registration card with her name and current address on it will satisfy the federal requirements for proving Montana residency to an FFL. See post #18.

If she’s breaking Oregon and/or Montana law by not getting a Montana drivers license, that’s a different issue.
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Old August 14, 2019, 08:33 AM   #24
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I feel like this thread is very informative about how not to give a gun to your sister in Montana. No offense to the OP, I hope it works out eventually.
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Old August 14, 2019, 08:35 PM   #25
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I feel like this thread is very informative about how not to give a gun to your sister in Montana....
The true "take home" lesson of this thread is that not taking care of business can have unexpected, undesirable consequences.
  • The OP's sister moved from Oregon to Montana intending that Montana would be her new State of residence.

  • Pretty much every State has laws, in some form, to the effect that a resident's driver's license becomes ineffective if that person moves and changes residence to a different State.

  • Every State has laws requiring a new resident who wants to legally drive get a driver's license within some limited period of time after moving (and surrender or destroy any driver's license issued by another State).

  • For whatever reason the OP's sister decided not to take care of those housekeeping chores.

  • So what should have been a simple firearms transfer at an FFL has become a hairball.
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