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Old August 7, 2019, 03:55 PM   #26
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We always seem to focus on making off-hand shots when this stuff is discussed here. There is no reason you couldn't use a pillar, shelves, or another structure to brace your shot. I'm not saying it would be a piece of cake, but if you are in a desperate situation looking for and advantage like that would seem wise.
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Old August 7, 2019, 04:29 PM   #27
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Distance shots, rested or not, several posters have commented
about holding over, giving the miscreant something to worry
about. Or even close in how shots start opening up beyond
say seven yards while firing rapidly.

Now as to the Vegas shooting and the guy in the window: Just
where when you're holding over and trying to find the range do
the rest of the bullets go? Short and into windows where
others might be, to the roof where cops might be.

It's one thing to "walk" shots where the good guys are on
one side of the river and the bad guys the other.

Remember, you own each bullet you unleash. You better
connect with the miscreant each time. You shoot one innocent
while trying to be a good guy and you'll be paying and paying
in dollars and possibly your personal freedom.

And think about concealed carry, it's abut personal
protection, not about doing a police job.

Be great if some LEOs posted about their thoughts
while carrying off duty.
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Old August 7, 2019, 04:43 PM   #28
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Folks in this thread, hop on over to the Tactics and Training
section. A lot of wise and good comments have been posted.

Perhaps the two threads could be combined.

Thread is entited "Could you have stopped it?"
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Old August 7, 2019, 05:50 PM   #29
Don Fischer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleEd View Post
Distance shots, rested or not, several posters have commented
about holding over, giving the miscreant something to worry
about. Or even close in how shots start opening up beyond
say seven yards while firing rapidly.

Now as to the Vegas shooting and the guy in the window: Just
where when you're holding over and trying to find the range do
the rest of the bullets go? Short and into windows where
others might be, to the roof where cops might be.

It's one thing to "walk" shots where the good guys are on
one side of the river and the bad guys the other.

Remember, you own each bullet you unleash. You better
connect with the miscreant each time. You shoot one innocent
while trying to be a good guy and you'll be paying and paying
in dollars and possibly your personal freedom.

And think about concealed carry, it's abut personal
protection, not about doing a police job.

Be great if some LEOs posted about their thoughts
while carrying off duty.
Good post!
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Old August 7, 2019, 07:52 PM   #30
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Well, my feeling are if I can consistently hit the targets at 50-75 yards with a snubbie off hand, I certainly should be able to hit something at 7. I rarely shoot targets (bullseye, steel, cans, shotgun cases, etc.) closer than 20Y. I never saw the point in general. Well, one point is when I am sighting in a gun for the first time, sometimes the sight is so far off I need to move in close to find out where the darn gun is shooting!
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Old August 8, 2019, 01:09 AM   #31
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While I concede that the need and justification to defend one's self with a handgun at extended rang is exceedingly rare, that doesn't mean it's impossible. The standard for justification to use deadly force in most jurisdictions is "reasonable fear of death or grave bodily harm" or some variation thereof. Now, if someone is wielding a handgun or non-projectile weapon (blade, blunt instrument, etc.) it would probably be hard to explain why you chose to shoot rather than retreat, but we seem to be thinking more along the lines of a mass shooting situation where the BG is armed with a rifle and that is a whole different kettle of fish.

Centerfire rifles, even those in intermediate calibers like 5.56x45 and 7.62x39, have well-deserved reputations for range and penetration. I highly doubt that there would be many things inside a typical retail store that would offer much more than concealment from rifle fire. Also, it really isn't all that hard to hit a man-sized target with iron-sights from 100+ yards if you have a clear field of fire so, to my way of thinking, a BG armed with a centerfire rifle certainly poses a risk of death or grave bodily injury at distances much greater than would be considered typical for lawful self-defense.

Now, how far I think prudent to practice depends a lot on your skill level and the type of gun you're using. For me, a full-size handgun is viable, though certainly not ideal, at ranges up to 50 yards. By full-sized handgun I mean a medium-to large frame revolver with a minimum of 3" barrel (though 4" or longer would be much better) or a semi-auto with a 4+" barrel and a full-size grip. As an example, I intentionally zero the sights on my 4" S&W 629 at 50 yards with my chosen ammo. While not the bulk of my practice, I do try to fairly regularly go out to 50 yards with this handgun and while I certainly don't shoot as well as I do at closer distances, I'm fairly confident that I could at least make anyone with any inkling of self-preservation seek cover while I get myself and my family out of danger.

With a smaller gun, such a small-frame snub revolver or subcompact semi-auto, my maximum range shrinks down to 25-30 yards. The only gun I own that I don't see any point in trying to shoot past 7-10 yards is the smallest I have: my Beretta 950B Jetfire .25 Auto as the grip and sights are simply too miniscule to be useable at great distance.

As for how adrenaline and the heat of the moment will affect you, that's a case of knowing yourself and how you react under stressful conditions. While I've never been in a gunfight (and I pray to God that I never will be) I have been in extremely stressful life-or-death situations. I have worked in the medical field in direct patient care for the past 6 years and in that time I've been in more that one Code-Blue (cardiopulmonary arrest) and several more near-code situations (most hospitals call these a "rapid response" though the terminology can vary from one-facility to another). Because of this, I know my ability to remain calm, quickly identify problems, make split-second decisions, and accomplish complex tasks requiring fine-motor skills all while under extreme stress. I've also been in the middle of medical emergencies involving close family members including my spouse and child.

While I'm not saying that the adrenaline dump and degradation of ability to accomplish complex tasks is the same as what would be experienced in a gunfight, I think it's probably as close as I can get without having actual law enforcement or military experience. Because of this, I'm reasonably confident in my ability to keep my head under pressure, but ymmv.
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Old August 8, 2019, 02:40 AM   #32
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there are folks who practice smacking a rock on the far hill with a wheel gun at ridiculous ranges...to several hundred yards.
I was one of those guys for 35+ years. Got pretty fair at it. Offhand, (unsupported) ONE hand, I'd ring the 200yd gong on the rifle range, 5 out of 6 on a bad day. Proved repeatedly I could do it with any pistol you gave me, after a couple sighter shots. (though .22s need a good spotter to help you get on, once you get on, you're good)

Now, in a situation like the Vegas shooting, I sincerely doubt I would try to take that shot. I rather doubt I could tell just which window he was shooting from, unless muzzle flash gave it away.

But if the bad guy is standing in the open, I know I have the skill to hit him. Whether or not I took the shot, and whether other factors would decrease my skill, I can't say and won't unless/until I'm ever in that situation, I simply don't KNOW.

For you urban folk, consider this, the usual 21 foot distance (7 yards) is about half the distance to someone standing on the far side of most city streets. Think about that, for a moment. If that is your maximum practice distance, how well will that serve you if you have to fire at double that distance?

Everyone should do some pistol shooting at longer ranges, if for no other reason than to get a first hand idea of the round amount of bullet drop at different distances from YOUR pistol.

If you actually want to learn how to hit things at longer ranges (50yds+) don't hold over the target. Hold "under". Learn how much to raise the front sight above the rear sight, with your target on top of the front sight.
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Old August 8, 2019, 05:45 AM   #33
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Beyond 7 yards, in most jurisdictions, it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’.
.....doubly so iffin' you're using handloads.
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Old August 8, 2019, 09:38 AM   #34
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The ten ring for precision pistol (bullseye as it was once known) is 3.36 inches at 50 yarrds, one handed unsupported.
In order to qualify for expert class, one would have to be shooting above 89 to 93.99 percent score.

At many shooting ranges I would be the lone shooter setting up on the rifle side to practice the long line (50 yards) slow fire.
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Old August 8, 2019, 12:10 PM   #35
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Always carry the gun that you are the best with and shoot 25 and 50 yards that way any thing closer will be easier but only shot at a short close but if the shooter is at 50 25 and shooting at you then it is safe to shoot back GOOD LUCK
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Old August 8, 2019, 12:24 PM   #36
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"...it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’..." That'd entirely be up to the presiding judge. And that's if you don't get shot by an over eager, not to mention and understandably, frightened copper. Who has no idea who you are. So like most such things, it depends on where you are.
Most CCW rules say things like "in imminent danger of loss of life or serious injury". How far away that is is usually determined in court too.
Anyway, 25 meters is roughly 82 feet. 25 yards is 75 feet. Far more than the width of a typical house lot. Shooting at those distances is still great fun though.
"...dismiss the pistol as a waste of time..." The military doesn't count. Pistols issued there are mostly status symbols and have nothing to do with CCW. Anyway, it's far easier to teach a complete neophyte to shoot a rifle than it is to shoot a hand gun. S'why there's such a thing as an M1 Carbine and an M4.
"...rifle matches..." Don't count either.
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Old August 8, 2019, 05:07 PM   #37
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This is a short vid of Hickock 45 shooting a Glock 19 on his range.

https://youtu.be/ri5AyXzxb4o

I don't know the ranges,but in other vids he slaps all the targets around with a variety of handguns...most of them loaned. His percentage of hits standing on his hind legs is pretty good..

This isn't about me. I don't claim to be as skilled as Hickock.

But IMO,he's a little more "like us" than a Miculek.

And I could shoot at his range and do OK.

I'm not saying Hickock or myself will shoot an "X MOA" group at 200 yds with a common handgun.

But I'd bet on a torso size target taking some hits out of a magazine. My point was about making some "dangerous real estate" more than making wild claims.

My younger days of shooting bullseye were about 270 something averages for the 30 shots.I averaged keeping them in the 9 ring.Nothing to brag about,nothing to be ashamed of.

Back when Pennzoil came in yellow quart cans,the cans were a favorite 100 yd target for my Ruger SBH,sitting,leaning aganst a wheel and using my knees. I hit often.

What most folks have never experienced,and so may not know how to understand,for about 25 years I had access to roughly 2000 acres of private North Colorado Ranch land.

I shot there a LOT. I had the luxury of picking any rock or bush on any hill or bluff that would stop a bullet and taking a shot,just cuz.


You can't make the shot if you don't take it. Sometimes it was near indirect fire. Across canyon? 400 yds? 500 yds? So what. The bullet would stop. If I could see a dust puffI had feed back.


You do that stuff enough,you get a feel.


We have a range that is 300 yds local. I've played with my 1911 at 300 a fair amount. I'm not launching poke and hope bullets into the sky.

Remember,I was not talking about typical robbery self defense.


The scenario might be like Steve Scalise. Somebody is whanging at me with an SKS. I'm just saying I can make life dangerous for him,and MAYBE stop him.

Beats the alternative.


As far as the critique that said "I own every shot fired" Well. I'll give that thought "nice dogma" but I take a pragmatic view when people are being killed with a long gun.


Offering the scenario of the Dayton shootings,I give the responding officers the highest possible respect for ending the threat in less than one minute.


I read something about maybe 45 count LEO brass on the ground.


I'm sure none of the officers can say for sure where every bullet stopped.


So what? Its a risk management thing. There is a rifle and shooter killing people. Bang,dead.Bang,another dead,bang dead. Innocent people.


You have your weapon. Everyone faces choices. You can get lost in dogma.


Bang,another death. A child. Bang


And you can live with your choice

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Old August 8, 2019, 05:29 PM   #38
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Beyond 7 yards, in most jurisdictions, it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’.
By jurisdictions, you mean the patrol area of the local cops, local law, or state law?

Have you actually seen this documented ANYWHERE? Have you ever seen a court case that stated that self defense is limited to X-distance, not just for the particular case, but as a rule? Have you ever seen this codified in any law?

Please share with us where this is document for any jurisdiction. Should not be hard since you said it was in most.
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Old August 8, 2019, 05:30 PM   #39
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Folks, it get different with some one shooting at you. That's wht cops and GIs some times use the spray n pray plan.
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Old August 8, 2019, 06:06 PM   #40
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I have been practicing defensive drills at 25, 35, and 50 yards for about two years now. The target is a common silhouette-type steel target, about 18 inches tall, maybe 12 inches wide. The drill is three rounds on steel from the draw in 10 seconds at 25 and 35 yards. 15 seconds at 50. One drill standing, one drill from a knee.

I've gotten to where I'll get hits about 90% of the time. It took a lot of practice, but I eventually figured out how to be consistent.

However, the steel isn't shooting back. But I started this drill in earnest when I was at my Wal-Mart one day and realized that most of the aisles were much longer than 21 feet. In fact, the average aisles was better than 30 paces end to end. With my stride, that's about 33 yards. The longest aisles are more than 70 paces. And it seems there's a fair number of bad guys that like hunting the rest of us at Wal-Mart.

So I decided that I should practice at longer ranges.
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Old August 8, 2019, 06:46 PM   #41
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So I decided that I should practice at longer ranges.
Longer range practice is good. However, the realistic chance that you will be in a long distance self defense shooting is going to be extremely rare. Very few will ever have a Vic Stacey incident outside of law enforcement and he was helping law enforcement at the time.

Your typical short range game should still be king for your defensive practice.

----

I have to laugh. I had a buddy that used to practice with his pistol out to 200 yards and was pretty good with it. His reasoning was that the wanted to be able to shoot the bad guy before the bad guy shot him. Finally one day he ended up in a lethal force situation, wrestling with his attacker over control of both of their guns. He lost. Fortunately, the other guy didn't shoot him.
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Old August 8, 2019, 07:11 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy View Post
Longer range practice is good. However, the realistic chance that you will be in a long distance self defense shooting is going to be extremely rare. Very few will ever have a Vic Stacey incident outside of law enforcement and he was helping law enforcement at the time.

Your typical short range game should still be king for your defensive practice.

----

I have to laugh. I had a buddy that used to practice with his pistol out to 200 yards and was pretty good with it. His reasoning was that the wanted to be able to shoot the bad guy before the bad guy shot him. Finally one day he ended up in a lethal force situation, wrestling with his attacker over control of both of their guns. He lost. Fortunately, the other guy didn't shoot him.
Oh, I completely agree. I have no illusions of grandeur regarding my ability to drop bad guys at 50 paces during the chaos of a spree shooting at my local Wally World.

My only point was that I realized that there are many places I frequent that might require a shot longer than 21 feet, so I practice at longer ranges. IMO, the more accustomed I become through practice at reliably hitting a target a longer ranges, the less I'll miss if I ever have to do it for real. Which I really hope never happens.

It's the same thing as pool. I practice 3-rail shots all the time. When they happen in a money game, which is extremely rare, most people I play miss. I don't.
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Old August 11, 2019, 08:29 AM   #43
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Just curious if anyone here practices shooting at moving targets? Majority of handgun ranges just have the standard "hang up your paper target and set it up to the max distance we offer." While I can hit a stationery target at 25 yards consistently with my Beretta 92, my percentage drops dramatically as soon as it starts moving left or right at any speed. Now my 28" 12 guage on the other hand is cake, but I dont ccw it, nor do I carry my full-size Beretta. My LCP is for up close self defense, and my Glock 23 comes when the weather cools off. Could I make a 25 yard shot with my LCP on a moving target that firing back? Bahahaha nope.
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Old August 11, 2019, 08:47 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Rangerrich99 View Post
Oh, I completely agree. I have no illusions of grandeur regarding my ability to drop bad guys at 50 paces during the chaos of a spree shooting at my local Wally World.

My only point was that I realized that there are many places I frequent that might require a shot longer than 21 feet, so I practice at longer ranges. IMO, the more accustomed I become through practice at reliably hitting a target a longer ranges, the less I'll miss if I ever have to do it for real. Which I really hope never happens.

It's the same thing as pool. I practice 3-rail shots all the time. When they happen in a money game, which is extremely rare, most people I play miss. I don't.
There is no requirement for longer shot's normally. If the guy is in your face, shoot at body mass. If the guy/girl is 20+ yds off you probably can reach cover or be gone. If the shooter has a rifle and your off to far and engage him, if he's any kind of shot and see's where your shooting from, your probably gonna die if you engage. Of course no one know's what the situation will be until it's a bit late for planning. If you have no choice but to engage, engage! If you have other choices, take them and live to fight another day. This Rambo stuff coming out of some people is scary. You could set the shooter in t kill them all mode and for what? To be a hero?
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Old August 12, 2019, 05:17 PM   #45
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This is an interesting post, mostly I've practiced at 5-10 yards, and I do imagine I could shoot out further with more practice. The question is, am I going to engage an active shooter if I can safely get myself or some people out of there and possibly save lives? Probably not.
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Old August 13, 2019, 08:42 PM   #46
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I have been in an on-duty shooting and I don't think it's wise usually to listen to urban legends made up of folks who haven't been there. The bottom line is, you have to articulate what you did, and why you did it to investigators, grand jurors, and if it goes to a civil or criminal trial, to the petit jury. Your articulation of the facts and other things that enter into the situation is what is critical. You have to be able to explain yourself, and the evidence collected at the scene has to reasonably back you up. If you embellish things that remove your statement from the physical evidence, you will be less believable. I used handloads. I was on-duty. I was authorized by my agency to use handloads at the time. It wasn't an issue in my situation. It may, or it may not be an issue in subsequent situations. But one constant thing is your describing what you did, and why you did it. You have to justify it. It may be more difficult in some of the more liberal regions of the country, it may not. But you need to do the right thing, at the right time, for the right reason. Then you have to explain it so those folks sitting there who have never been in your shoes know what went on. There are some smart, experienced national experts who pass along good information. There are some out there I wouldn't listen to for a minute. You have to figure out who to listen to. Don't just take my word for it, I was only involved in one shooting. But seek out good information from folks who know, not someone who is trying to make a buck or a name for themselves.
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Old August 14, 2019, 10:36 AM   #47
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At the range a couple of days ago and most shots were 5- 10 yards. I did take a number of shots at 25 yards and kept them in the torso on target. But I kept asking myself how do others guys hold groups at this distance? I guess the answer is practice.
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Old August 14, 2019, 01:46 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by kenny53 View Post
At the range a couple of days ago and most shots were 5- 10 yards. I did take a number of shots at 25 yards and kept them in the torso on target. But I kept asking myself how do others guys hold groups at this distance? I guess the answer is practice.
I stunk bigtime at 25 meters today. Listened to a couple corrective measures from the RSO, will be working on internalizing them next time

D
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Old August 14, 2019, 02:05 PM   #49
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if you shot a person shooting others.... i.e. in El Paso or Dayton, and you were 50 yards from them, it would be ruled justified. lethal force can be justified in defense of a third party not just yourself. that said, you should at least know what you can do with the gun you normally carry. whether or not you need to shot an assailant at 50 yards or not, your question should be are you capable of doing so.
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Old August 14, 2019, 05:41 PM   #50
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Beyond 7 yards, in most jurisdictions, it isn’t considered ‘self-defense’.
Exactly.

Real self-defense is dinner table distance.

Imaginary self-defense, (which is more fun for mall ninjas to talk about on forums), is anyone's guess.
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