7/11 robbery with robbers shot

[johnwilliamson062]

Apparently you two have no qualms about a non police security guard shooting so casually.

I'm amazed he stopped shooting when he did. I thought his reaction was quite reserved. Usually people nearly empty the gun in such a situation.

If you don't want to get shot DON"T COMMIT ARMED ROBBERY!

[Sevens]

Apparently you two have no qualms about a non police security guard shooting so casually.

Dunno bout all your other gas, but I'm here to say that I have no qualms about armed thugs getting shot. Feel free to add me to your list.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by briandg

I didn't understand what that he had said.

At the point that he fired the third shot there was no hostage. I'm not sure where you would actually define that as a hostage situation.

Apparently you two have no qualms about a non police security guard shooting so casually.

If you missed when he clearly told the clerk to call 9-1-1, you weren't listening. I heard it the first time I watched the video, and I had no trouble going back and finding it. So your complaint that he didn't even call it in was unfounded. It's not his fault that you didn't understand what he said.

Correct, after he had shot both robbers and ascertained that the robbers' gun(s) was/were fakes, there was no hostage. However, when he came through the door and opened fire, there WAS a hostage, apparently being held at gunpoint. That's a "hostage situation." What's your point? Once the hostage has been rescued, NO hostage situation is a hostage situation.

The only qualm I have about the event is that if the robber's gun had been real, the hostage might have been shot. Was it the wisest decision to burst in shooting? We can't possibly know. If he had been the police, they would have called in backup, and then a hostage negotiating team, and if the robber's gun was real they still might have shot (and even killed) the hostage. It's axiomatic that "action beats reaction." The guard did what he did, it ended well for everyone except the robbers, so why should we have problems with it?

[Marco Califo]

Compton and Gardena are very close, like across a street, Not at all a good area to mess around.

My biggest question is What Powder was in his revolver shells, because there is NO MUZZLE FLASH. I am envious! Is it BE86? Silhouette? [OK, shot #1 had minor flash.]

Assuming it is California, the Firearms permit systems for guuards is based on Caliber: 38 and 357 are the same caliber, so are 40 SW and 10mm. To get multi caliber certed you jsut shot the same course with the 2nd or third caliber. Been there, done that. However, that all means little or nothing when you work for a 9mm only or 38 only client or company. Yes you need the credential, but having the credential does not mean you can carry it.

The guard is too calm, it seems. There is a shots fired reporting requirement. I happen to agree with the shooting as justified. Personally, when I did that training, we had a hardened Narco Detective teaching it and he made his opinion clear: shoot and keep shooting until the threat is ceased. There is no half way. You do not take prisoners in a shootout. I agree. Multiple rounds into the chest. No arm shooting wingshots. Standard tactics for Security and Police require shooting until the threat is gone. You do not want wounded idiots with a gun or guns moving around, and you need to secure the scene. When perps cross that line (armed robbery), there is no requirement to keep them alive: they play with guns with big boys they should end up dead.

Police in that area, Compton and Gardena are in LA County and policed by the LASD are known for "contagious fire" and over 100 shots have been fired at lone perps. But lately they seem to have effectively reduced that drastically.
*****
Update: It may well have been Los Angeles County:
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...118-story.html
There are multiple reports on the same incident, here is NJ:
http://dailycaller.com/2018/01/15/wa...t-blank-video/

[Marco Califo]

Another thing: Expect the store clerk to file a complaint and lawsuit against the guard, his company, and the store.

If you were the clerk would you expect, or want, this course of action (before you knew the outcome). Yes, it turned out good.

[Marco Califo]

"An armed private security guard recently thwarted a robbery in West Compton by shooting two would-be thieves, and surveillance video of the incident is circulating on social media, the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department said Thursday.

The security guard was sitting outside a convenience store – the Los Angeles Times identified it as a 7-Eleven – in the 15200 block of South Avalon Boulevard on the night of Dec. 30, 2017, when two teenagers entered the business, according to a sheriff’s news release. [7/11 @ 15228 S Avalon Blvd, Compton, CA 90220; cross Avalon to So Bay Scaffolding, 15209 S Avalon Blvd, Gardena, CA 90248, and you are in Gardena]


Moderators Note: Edited to remove the copyrighted story. Read the entire story Below.

http://ktla.com/2018/01/18/mines-rea...on-in-gardena/

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

Another thing: Expect the store clerk to file a complaint and lawsuit against the guard, his company, and the store.

If you were the clerk would you expect, or want, this course of action (before you knew the outcome). Yes, it turned out good.

You mean, before he knew the gun pointed at him was fake, would the clerk have wanted to be rescued? I suppose there's a small mathematical possibility that the answer might be "No," but I think it's unlikely that he'd have preferred being shot over being rescued.

[4V50 Gary]

Macrco Califo - a lawsuit against the guard? What tort?

[Marco Califo]

Endangering the hostage with reckless intervention in a hostage crisis, not complying with the Cal. Budiness and Profession Code for armed guards, not referring a hostage situation immediatley to quailified law enforcement, associated stress, workplace safety violations. You may not ahree with me. But you have not heard the last of this ahooting yet.

[OldMarksman]

Marco, do you have a basis for believing that any of those things would involve civil liability?

[Double Naught Spy]

You may not ahree with me. But you have not heard the last of this ahooting yet.

You be sure to keep us posted on this, right?

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

not complying with the Cal. Budiness and Profession Code for armed guards,

How about posting the specific provisions of this code that you think the security guy violated, and then post a link to the document on an official State web site so we can read the language for ourselves, in context.

[In The Ten Ring]

If you were the clerk would you expect, or want, this course of action (before you knew the outcome). Yes, it turned out good.

I would want and expect security to do its job: protect employees, customers, and property. It's the bad guys that forced this outcome, no one else. Any bad outcome is totally on the bad guys.

I used to be a rental cop but in a very pro-gun state. We had to provide our own arms but there was no limitation. .357 Mag revolvers ruled the day for about half my time there but then Glocks seemed to become very popular all at once.

One guy, a unique character but the best backup you could imagine on a call, carried no less than 9 weapons, if you include his shotgun and guns he carried in his patrol car (yes we had cars provided by the company).

I held true to my Browning BDM the entire time. I think the guard did extremely well, my only complaint is the clerk didn't shoot those scum bags.

Marco.....geeze! Your reply just gave me another reason to have no desire to live in Kalifornia.

****

Apparently you two have no qualms about a non police security guard shooting so casually.

How was dead on target shots "shooting so casually?"

What I have a problem with are criminals and the politicians and mindset that encourage their activities. At age 16 I was working, studying, and volunteering my time with the Civil Air Patrol. Why weren't these kids doing the same thing? That's the question society should be asking.

[johnwilliamson062]

The clerk is working a crap job making crap wages.
If he files a complaint using a crap lawyer someone will probably throw him some money to get rid of it irrespective of the merits. So, he will likely try it. There will certainly be lawyers willing to help him.

As much as I do not blame the guard for his actions, I could see the clerk not being all that happy. Most convenience store armed robberies don't end in a shooting. Usually the clerk gives up the money and that is the end of it. This involved quite a bit of extra excitement.

[TomNJVA]

Here is an analysis of the shooting by Active Self Protection.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNE_38ZExI

TomNJVA

[Marco Califo]

http://www.bsis.ca.gov/
http://www.bsis.ca.gov/about_us/laws/pssact.shtml
http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/firearms_manual.pdf
http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/incidentreprt.pdf
https://govt.westlaw.com/calregs/Bro...ault%29&bhcp=1

Another thing I think a lot of you who have never actually done that work don't understand are the Employers (Security company paying the guard) policy's and directives, and client's (7/1 company's) specific instructions. Neither of them want this to happen. The general instructions are to release the cash and not have any one get hurt. [De-escalate, which is also the state doctrine]. 7/11 has a very effective method of currency control (a drop safe and timed change draw). It is impossible to get more than $500 in a 7/11 stickup. Since the dollar loss is controlled, they DO NOT WANT confrontation. They instruct the clerks to hand it over if robbed, They also give cops free coffee, sodas free.

I worked banks, where the bank manager ignored the two armed guards guarding the payday millions (literally), until we calmly, silently and slyly moved into positions, one behind and one off to one side of an idiot who can in on a sweltering summer Friday afternoon, wearing black leather and a motorcycle helmet and full Visor with a large bag slung over one shoulder. We also had to scan both entrances and the parking lot as this was unfolding. The rider on the storm cashed his paycheck and left. The manager went crazy on us for "acting like cowboys". We told her to call our office. End for her issue.
The next week, said biker came back in and apologized and understood, then, what we were doing and why, and acknowledged his outfit as unwise. [A footnote, our actions that day in the 1980's are probably no longer "within current regulation".]
Of course this guard will not be hired for crowded lobbies at big cash handling banks. But imagine if these guys, two bad and one in uniform, Larry, Mo, and Curly Joe, played this out in one of those bank lobbies.

The doctrine in California is for armed security to be an effective deterrent, so that the crime does not go down in the first place.
This guard seems to have been employed for just this 7/11 as his client. He is supposed to be seen, look sharp, and deter. That is his job. He is not allowed to intimidate. Only necessary actions in an emergency is allowed, ultimately to act preserve life (not property anymore). Was he supposed to stand inside, or outside? Was he on the phone with a galpal, or eating cheese burgers in his armed guard mobile. The two bleeders didn't seem to know the place had an armed guard: THAT MEANS HE WAS NOT DOING HIS JOB. He may have felt he needed to bust in shooting to make up for why ever he was not at his post. Ok, he may have been told to watch the parking lot too. But The perps had NO CLUE he was there.

I may reinstate by credential (again). The Firearms permit comes in handy at my gun club when I renew. I have looked up the instructor who I last had, and may try to talk to him this Saturday, because I want to here his take on this. Videos like this one get used in the classes, always as topics of what not to do.

[Marco Califo]

Regarding 38 or 357: For your permit they are the same thing. You qualify with a 38 or 357, and you get the same qualification: 38/357. 30 years ago, when revolvers were popular, we all bought 357 magnum revolvers, buy generally carried 38 Special ammunition in them. No security companies or clients allowed 357 magnum ammunition. The gun was fine as long as the ammunition as 38 Spc.
Some places issued SW model 10's, and 5 bullets for the six cylinder. The hammer had to rest on an empty chamber, so that the gun would not fischarge if dropped on the hammer. For that reason you can no longer bring a Model 10 to California, as the DOJ has a lisy of firearms OK to buy and own in California. Also the bullets that company issued you 5 of were FMJ (non expanding).
So 38 or 357? Usually it was BOTH. 357 revolver, with 38 Special ammo.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

http://www.bsis.ca.gov/
http://www.bsis.ca.gov/about_us/laws/pssact.shtml
http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/firearms_manual.pdf
http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/incidentreprt.pdf
https://govt.westlaw.com/calregs/Bro...ault%29&bhcp=1

Okay, there's a regulation (which does not have the title you originally cited). You stated that the guard in the video acted in violation of this standard. I asked which specific provisions of the standard he violated. You haven't answered the question.

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

The doctrine in California is for armed security to be an effective deterrent, so that the crime does not go down in the first place.
This guard seems to have been employed for just this 7/11 as his client. He is supposed to be seen, look sharp, and deter. That is his job. He is not allowed to intimidate. Only necessary actions in an emergency is allowed, ultimately to act preserve life (not property anymore). Was he supposed to stand inside, or outside? Was he on the phone with a galpal, or eating cheese burgers in his armed guard mobile. The two bleeders didn't seem to know the place had an armed guard: THAT MEANS HE WAS NOT DOING HIS JOB. He may have felt he needed to bust in shooting to make up for why ever he was not at his post. Ok, he may have been told to watch the parking lot too. But The perps had NO CLUE he was there.

Again -- where in state law or regulation is this doctrine you refer to spelled out? Please provide the statute or regulation number and the section you think he violated.

[In The Ten Ring]

I always wondered why teachers, parents, even police advised the public "just give them what they want" as this made no sense to me. Then on 9-11-01 that advice was put to the test on four separate airplanes and everyone on those planes died.

I guess that was bad advice.

**

We are also making the assumption that the guard was assigned to this store as "on site security." He might have been in a car with a set of places to check on during his shift. When I was a rental unit, other than the "night deposit drop escort," I spent my 8 hours making rounds.

The guard might have also been outside assisting a customer, having a smoke, or escorting a trouble-maker off the grounds. It is unfounded, at this point, to assume he was goofing off out there.

[Marco Califo]

Sorry Aquila, but you need to be able to click and read, and cognitively process information. Or show me your firearms permit.
I looked for the part where it says It is OK for you to walk in shooting. ?That's not there¿
Anyway I do not take orders from you, and your too tight panties tone does nothing for me. I done with you, personally. But I certainly will discuss facts and issues about this incident, just not with you.

[In The Ten Ring]

Moderator, clean up on isle 7. LOL

Calm down guys. I'm new here but I hate to see tempers flare.....that's why I left FB and came back to discussion forums. Please smooth it over....we all need to stop taking dissent personally and learn how to get along better (remind me when I get upset as sometimes I do too).

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

Sorry Aquila, but you need to be able to click and read, and cognitively process information. Or show me your firearms permit.
I looked for the part where it says It is OK for you to walk in shooting. ?That's not there¿
Anyway I do not take orders from you, and your too tight panties tone does nothing for me. I done with you, personally. But I certainly will discuss facts and issues about this incident, just not with you.

You are the person who made a statement that the security guard violated provisions of California regulations. The way this forum operates, it is the responsibility of the person making a claim to provide supporting documentation. Providing a list of links (just one of which leads to a 95-page document) and expecting us to read them to try to figure out what you're referring to is not the way it works. You made the statement "not complying with the Cal. Budiness and Profession Code for armed guards" (which is, again, not even the correct title for the regulation), so it's your responsibility to explain what provisions of the regulation he violated.

Originally Posted by Marco Califo

I looked for the part where it says It is OK for you to walk in shooting. ?That's not there¿

Did you find a section that says it's NOT okay to walk in shooting? Laws don't generally tell us what's legal, they tell us what isn't legal. Can you find a California law that says it's legal to walk into a McDonald's and buy a Big Mac and a soda? If you dig, though, I'm sure you can find a law that says you can't order and eat a meal in a restaurant and then walk out without paying. You probably won't find a law that says it's legal to stop for a red light, but you will find one that says it's illegal to proceed through a red light without stopping.

[In The Ten Ring]

Active Self Protection review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVNE_38ZExI

I loved the opener about the "pre attack clues." A few years back I worked a stop and rob gig and developed a set of rules for when such a thing happened to me. I decided that anyone entering with a hood pulled over their head would cause me to go into "Defcon 3" and I'd order them to remove the hood from their head or leave.

It was New York Reload on that gig (pocket and ankle carry).

[JohnKSa]

The way this forum operates, it is the responsibility of the person making a claim to provide supporting documentation.

To clarify, while that is not a TFL forum rule, it is one of the fundamental rules of constructive debate. The burden of proof rests on the person making the assertion.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/...urden-of-Proof

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof

[Marco Califo]

"The guard, who fired on one of the prone teens after he declared the gun was fake, has not been charged with a crime, but the case does remain under investigation, according to the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department."
https://patch.com/california/los-ang...ine-real-video