Something stinks with my reloading. But what is it?

[Pond, James Pond]

First the specs:
.44Spl LSWC, strongly flared cases, seated to 36.80mm and a 1/3 turn crimp with a Lee FCD.

It's all done on a hand-press and for the crimp I tend to snap the press shut, rather than easing it closed. I do that because it gets me passed the flared mouth.

Now the problem:
Several of my rounds showed signs of the bullet moving in the case, mostly outwards, but a couple of times inward. Those outward, I could easily push it back in with finger pressure.

I can see a crimp line in the bullets (they lack a cannelure) and the bullets look to have some silvery coating on them.

Where am I going wrong?

[mikld]

I'd say slow down on the crimp action. If you have the "specifics" about case flaring and seating down pat, you may try a lighter flare, to enable easier entry of the flared case into the crimp die. Possibly the quick run into the die disrupts the bullet seating (sometimes pushing the bullet back and sometimes the bullet eases forward from inertia). I never cared for the Lee FCD, especially for my lead bullets in .44 Magnum, so I use either a plain old roll crimp or a Redding Profile crimp. No need to resize the completed round...

[buck460XVR]

One of the complaints about a FCD is how it can resize lead bullets when too heavy of a crimp is applied. By sizing the case down when crimping, it compresses the bullet and makes it a tad smaller than original,. The case, made of brass, springs back a tad and thus the crimp makes for less neck tension than not using it at all. It's a pretty common occurrence with the FCD and lead bullets.

[Pond, James Pond]

OK...
That would start making sense and it matches what I've experienced.

Does this mean I finally need to master the seat and crimp combined action of the seating die?

If you have the "specifics" about case flaring and seating down pat, you may try a lighter flare,

I'd like to in order to be kinder to the cases, but that flare is about the point that the bullets just sit inside the mouth. Prior to that it was shaving material off the bullet walls.

I'll look into the Redding. Not too sure where to obtain it though without hefty shipping from abroad...

[Rangerrich99]

James, are you loading those .44 specials to max or +P levels? Because if you're not, you really don't need a lot of crimp to hold those bullets in place.

And as someone else already pointed out, you probably don't need quite as much case mouth flare as what you're using. Originally I actually did it the way you describe; I put a good obvious flare on the case. However, I found after a few hundred rounds that this amount of belling actually made the seating part more problematic.

I load a lot of .44 special using LSWC bullets and I've found that all I need is about 1 full turn on the seater die after case mouth contact. Or in other words, just a bit more than I need to get rid of the flare, which on my die is about a half turn.

Basically, I try to keep in mind the old mantra, "less is more."

Ah, just read your last post; I guess my post isn't going to help you that much. Hope you get it figured out.

[Mobuck]

"strongly flared cases,"

Flare case mouths only enough to seat bullets w/o shaving.

[Ozzieman]

James, are you loading those .44 specials to max or +P levels? Because if you're not, you really don't need a lot of crimp to hold those bullets in place.

This is good advice that Rangerrich99 is giving, very good.
Several questions
What bullet are you using? I have never seen a lead semi wad cutter that doesn't have a crimp grove.
Also if you have to slam the press closed to get past the flared mouth then that's where your getting the bulged cases. A photo would help
Now if your talking about a slight bulged that runs from the mouth of the case to where the bullet ends this is normal if its slight. This shows that you have a good fit to the bullet and another reason you don't need much of a crimp.
Does the led bullet have a beveled bottom? This will help a great deal.
http://www.pennbullets.com/44/44-caliber.html
If you look at the bullets on the page above you will see that every bullet that Penn makes has a crimp grove. This is the first ring from the top shoulder.
I set the crimp / seater so that it wont crimp the case. Then lower the seater until the bullet is at the top of the case, just above the bottom of the crmip ring.
Once I have the depth set I then rise the seater and then lower the crimp die until I get a nice firm crimp in that shoulder.
With the loaded case fully into the die, lower the seater till it makes contact with the bullet.
It might take a couple of rounds to get it right but from there your good to go.
The idea is to set the bullet depth first without crimping then crimping the case for the first one.
On the flair. Put the case up into the die with the belling plug up as far as it will go. Then raise the case into the die. Then bring the bell down till it makes contact. Then lower the case slightly and turn down the plug 1/4 to 1/2 turn. And repeat till you get the bell you need. You only want enough bell so that the bullet will set on its on, in the case so that it will start without shaving lead.

If you look close at the bullets on the page like the 200 GR RNFPBB. This is a great bullet with a beveled base, I go though thousands of these a year and highly recommend them. If you need a wad cutter the 240 is also a great bullet.

[Pond, James Pond]

On the point of case flare:

The cases are flared to the point that the entire bullet base enters the case by under 0.5mm, but it is in. The case mouth does not interfere with the bullet base.

It may be that I can back it of a tiny bit, but when I first realised that I needed more flare than my plated bullets I had increased flare incrementally to reach the point where I am now... I made a point of not going heavier on flare than needed as the issue of metal-fatigue with flare-fire-resize cycles is ever-present in my mind.

The loads are probably close to max but I haven't been able to check velocity as yet. A marginally hotter load (0.1gr) with plated bullets of the same weight gave about 900fps, but they had a flat base.

I highlight bullet base because these bullets have a pronounced concave base meaning that the walls are more prone to being deformed by the swaging action of the FCD than solid-base bullets. They don't have a crimp groove. They are by a company called WM and I think they were old shelf stock.

[Master Blaster]

Measure the bullets are they under size? Check the cases after sizing are they being properly resized? Reduce the crimp with the FCD or get rid of the FCD and roll crimp with the regular seating crimping die. If you want to seat and crimp in separate steps get another regular seat crimp die and remove the seating stem and use it to roll crimp instead of the FCD.

[RC20]

James: While there is a lot to chew on there are two basics that I went with and worked (bullets size can throw it all off so don't ignore that)


1. As little flare as you can get away with and still get the bullet to go into the case.

2. I quit the seat and crimp early on and I always do the crimp as a separate step.
I shot 41 magnum, they were hot loads so the crimp was needed.

[Pond, James Pond]

If you want to seat and crimp in separate steps get another regular seat crimp die and remove the seating stem and use it to roll crimp instead of the FCD.

This might be the best step for me at present. It seems clear that the crimp was inadequate and probably because the FCD was undoing a lot of the tension in the case achieved beforehand.

I will also see if I can ease off the flare just a tad.

[IMtheNRA]

A couple of things in your posts stand out:

1. Assuming that you're reloading for a revolver, then if your .44 revolver bullet does not have a crimping groove, you're using the wrong bullet. A roll crimp must have a groove to roll into.

2. If your use of the Lee FCD is, as you say, "undoing" whatever neck tension your cartridge had, then you're either over-crimping with the Lee FCD, swaging the bullet and causing loss of neck tension, or your loaded cartridge is already so wrecked by application of improper technique or components, that even the Lee FCD is unable to fix it.

3. Your description of press operation included the term "snapping the press shut". If you're not operating the press smoothly and gently, then you're not using it correctly, which explains your thread title, "something stinks with my reloading".

If you're really interested in getting specific instructions to fix your flawed .44 cartridges, then you're really going to have to post some photos of your bullet, "strongly" flared case, seated bullet in the case, and a ruined cartridge after you run it through the Lee FCD. Odds are, your problems will be immediately apparent.

Also, take a look at some of the many Youtube videos with instructions on single stage press operation, paying particular attention to smooth, consistent strokes of the operating lever.

[HiBC]

I'll see if I can add anything.
First you size.A carbide sizing die is nice.You don't need lube.Your size die needs to reduce the ID of the case enough so that you have some neck tension...interference,between the bullet and the case. Old dies can wear out.
Bullets can be cast undersize. In any case,you must begin with some neck tension. With NO Crimp,is the bullet secure?
Your flare die is also your expander plug.You might check size on that.
And,yes,it is a bit more trouble,but you can use a washer or feeler gage to repeatably set your seating die up off of your shell holder,so your die does not crimp at all,or only reduces the bell.

Then reset your seating depth.Seat to a depth to place your crimp groove mostly,but not fully hidden from view by the case mouth.
Don't worry about crimp for now.Seat them all.

On the Lee FCD. I don't know for sure,but isn't that A) aCollet type die,and B) a taper crimp type die?
As has been mentioned,The collet may size your bullets down to undersize.Lead is dead mallable,brass springs. Good theory to check.

Taper vs roll crimp,for a semi-auto,taper crimp resiits SETBACK,while retaining the headspacing case mouth.
The roll crimp is good to resist bullet PULL,from ignition and from recoil.
Semi-autos and revolvers need opposite things from the crimp.(somewhat)

So then you back off the seater stem,and screw your seater die down till you get the desired crimp.Crimp them all.

[Pond, James Pond]

1. Assuming that you're reloading for a revolver, then if your .44 revolver bullet does not have a crimping groove, you're using the wrong bullet. A roll crimp must have a groove to roll into.

These are LSWCs. I'm no expert, but can these be used in anything other than a revolver in the handgun? Do they even chamber in a semi?

Either way, they are soooft!! So surely the crimp would push into the lead.

Point taken with the press operation, but the hand press does not lend itself to smooth and gentle in the way that a bench press does...

I've already re-seated the bullets, removed the plunger and used the seater die crimp function and it seems OK. I'll try to send a picture to show the new crimp...

[44 AMP]

Hello James! You do come up with some interesting problems, probably due to your supply situation.

First off, the bullet sounds ...odd...

No crimp groove, hollow base...and dead soft? this doesn't sound like a modern revolver bullet design. Sounds more like something made to be fired out of a muzzleloader.

It would not be an auto pistol bullet, there are very few .44 cal auto pistols, and the most common (Desert Eagle) is NOT suited for lead bullets. And none of the recoil operated .44 cal semis I know will like soft lead bullets, at all!

Its a SWC design, so, in theory its possible to crimp over the front edge of the forward driving band. This, of course means the bullet will be seated deeper in the case, and so loads will have to be carefully worked up to account for the difference in case capacity.

IF the slugs are "soooft", it is also possible to simply crimp the case into the bullet, without needing a crimp groove, BUT this is not ideal, and only works if you use a die that only applies force at the location of the crimp.

I don't use the Lee FCD, never have, never will, I expect. Don't know much about it, other than I make perfectly acceptable ammo without one. From what I hear, the Lee die "sizes" the case neck a bit as it crimps (if I'm mistaken, please disregard), and if that's the case, its NOT a good thing for lead bullets, and especially not soft ones.

(also want to add that really soft slugs are not a good idea for top or upper end loads, even in a mellow round like .44 Special.)

I understand those bullets may be all you can get, but I'd try and get something else, when you use up the ones you have.

Now, about "snapping" the press shut so you can get the flared case into the die...not good. If you have to do that, you're either flaring the case TOO much, or you need a die with a better radius at the mouth.

When you say "hand press" you mean one you hold in your hands when you operate it, right? Handy and portable, no doubt. Seems like it would be fine for resizing pistol brass, but when it comes to seating, how close is it held to "straight up and down"? I think the combination of the angle of the hand press and your needing to "snap" it could be a big part in things not working real well.

If you can fasten the press to almost anything fairly sturdy (such as with a C clamp), I think things would work better. I've used a standard bench mount press (RCBS) just C clamped to a table for years. Bolting them down isn't absolutely needed, its just a nice (nearly) permanent mounting.

Do keep an eye on the bore for lead buildup while shooting them. Soft lead bullets tend to do that if the speed it too much or the fit isn't just right.

Good Luck!

[Nathan]

Please help me troubleshoot a bit...what bullet brand and model? What is the OD. Measure 3 times in 3 places around the circumference. Try to get the most perpendicular measurements possible. What is average?

Last, pull a bullet and please measure the same way about 1/4 way up from base. What does it measure?

[SHR970]

No crimp groove, hollow base...and dead soft? this doesn't sound like a modern revolver bullet design. Sounds more like something made to be fired out of a muzzleloader.

Actually it sounds more like a hybrid version of a Hornady or Speer Swaged lead bullet. Hornady's don't have a crimp groove and both brands are soft. Neither has a hollow base but Pond's may be locally made.

In any event swaged lead requires a very minimal crimp; make the crimp look like a 9mm taper crimp. Anything more and you are distorting the bullet.

Case flare should be just enough to start the bullet without shaving it.

Your press motion should be fluid.. no snapping. That in and of itself can cause distortion especially if the bullet cants while you get it into the die. Fluid gives it a chance to align. I'm presuming a Lee Hand Press or equivelent from your description.

[buck460XVR]

Either way, they are soooft!!

Sounds like a swagged bullet which are really suspect to being resized with a FCD and causing the problem you are experiencing. Just use the seating/crimp die instead.

[Pond, James Pond]

My reloading conundrums must have eyes rolling from East to West over your side of the Pond....

Ho hum... c'est la vie.

OK here are what the bullets look like:

Scroll down to the picture of 6 bullets where one has a blue lube groove and the others don't.

Look at the ones to the far left and imagine a base that is hollowed to such an extent that is almost the mirror image of the bullet cone profile: you can almost stick the bullets by putting one nose into the base of another....

I don't think it is a minie bullet: it certainly wasn't advertised that way.

I will get around to measuring pulled ones at some point, but the ones from the box come out averaging .430. SOme were .4295, some .430 and some .4305".

[Pond, James Pond]

I've just seated and pulled two bullets. One I crimped with the FCD and the OD came back at about 0.427" avg.

The one that was simply seated but not crimped by FCD showed an OD of 0.4275" so not that big a difference.

[RC20]

James:

LSWC: WC would be wad cutter.

LS?

While I have shot 38 in WC, never a 44 (not that it could not be done).

I never saw a bullet you describe that has a hollow base.

It sounds like these are horribly soft.

You can't shoot them like that without lube.

The leading would be atrocious and fill the groves in 4 rounds. Not even low speed.

[Pond, James Pond]

LSWC: Lead Semi-Wadcutter.

No plating, no jacket....

Honestly, so far there has been no leading but I think they must have a coat of something on them...

[44 AMP]

Modern Dry-Film lubricants are fantastic things. They can be virtually undetectable to the eye, or to the touch, and still do a good job.

[Pond, James Pond]

It certainly seems to be doing the job.

[buck460XVR]

I've just seated and pulled two bullets. One I crimped with the FCD and the OD came back at about 0.427" avg.

The one that was simply seated but not crimped by FCD showed an OD of 0.4275" so not that big a difference.

No, but it proves that the FCD is resizing the bullet when being crimped. I doubt very much that the speed or the force you use when using your press has any impact on the amount of crimp or neck tension of the case itself, unless your press has an extreme amount of flex when it bottoms out. Neck tension is controlled by the size of your resizing die, thickness of the case itself, size of the projectile and the amount of flare used to start the bullet. If one has inadequate neck tension(as it appears you have), it is because of the aforementioned. Resizing the bullet smaller after it has been seated can do nuttin' but reduce neck tension.