How About a "Power" Requirement?

[oldbillthundercheif]

I was watching some "cowboy" shooting on a show the other day and was put off by a few things.

-These guys are loading their rounds so light that the recoil is in the .22LR ballpark.

-They are shooting these super-light loads at huge targets less than 10ft away.

-Most of them are wearing multicolored scarfs and have dangly fringe festooned upon their clothing. I'm talking about the men here, I don't have a problem with women wearing this odd junk.

The last contact I had with this sport a good while back was considerably different. The guys used loads that were actually useful for something other than making a huge square of metal three feet in front of them go "ping". They used to use some paper targets that required good hits for a good score. Also, they didn't used to look like rejects from a gay-pride parade.

What happened to this sport? How about some new rules to bring it back into line?

[Hafoc]

You've put your finger on one reason I haven't gotten into SASS matches and probably won't. Of course, for saying this, the gamers will crucify you.

It's like any other shooting sport. You start out with people shooting real guns, but then the gamers come in and drive everyone else out with their hyperexpensive, purpose-built, useless-for-anything guns. Who in their right mind would try to hunt with a target rifle or trap gun? And so it is with CAS. A bit slower, because the weapons still have to LOOK like they might be useful, but it's still happening.

Every new shooting sport to come out sets up its rules to try to prevent this from happening. Every sport gets taken over by the gamers, and then we invent another sport.

The other reason I haven't joined is the number of guns involved. I'm fairly sure that Wild Bill didn't go wandering down the streets of Abeline hauling a cutesey pseudo-Consetoga wagon loaded with three spare revolvers, a rifle, a shotgun, and 50 pounds of ammo and accessories, but that's how the game is played now.

If you're hauling a cart of gadgets behind you, it's not real shooting; it's golf with guns.

Personally, I'm more interested in the history, and not for re-enactment, although that's fine (as is a SASS-rules match) for those who like it. What I'd prefer is some sort of semi-historical combat training. I'd like to see the weapons period-stock, and somehow see them rated according to their true historical performance-- the Colt revolver is slower to reload, for example, but the Smith and Wesson is less powerful and needs more precise hits. That sort of thing.

But no such shooting game exists, as far as I know. And making the rules for it would be a BEAR. Just how would you handicap a SAA vs. a Russian Model? Sheesh, you think you have arguments now!

[Whisk]

I never could figure out all the crap these dudes are wearing in SASS now!

Some of them look like Bob Hope in "Son of Paleface"!

Remember that

[FLATWOODS FRED]

CAS has sadly turned into an arms race like so many other shooting sports. Yes its a time and accuracy sport which means you will always have folks pushing the limits. One fellow went so far as to use trick 12 gauge hulls that would accept a 410 shotshell!!

Recently, Mike Venturio took the sport to task in one of his articles. Needless to say he got roasted and fryed on the SASS Wire. Its a good read.

Here are a few of my thoughts:

They call it Cowboy action shooting yet they don't allow Spencer or Bullard pump shotguns that WERE part of the old west and if you do shoot a 97 (which is allowed) then you have to single load.

They call it Cowboy Action Shooting, a sport were you can enjoy shooting the guns of the Old West, yet they promptly shortstroke, Lightingrod, Leather wrap, hacksaw, ream, polish etc. to go faster.

This is a very personal pet peeve. I cannot imagine how many fine old firearms have been hacked, butched or destroyed for this sport. Thank goodness for the replicas!

They call it Cowboy Action Shooting, a chance to shoot the classic cartridges of the Old West yet they buy a 45 Colt or 44 WCF and then promptly try to reproduce 32 caliber ballistics. Buy the the 32 cal. in the first place and save a few fine guns from being blown to bits with double charges and bullets that don't clear the bore.

They call it Cowboy Action Shooting but at any given regional meet theres more grits, Cream of wheat and other cereal stuff that rightfully belongs in a bowl, being shot then I could have ever eaten as a tow headed youth.

They call it Cowboy Action Shooting, which gives me a chance to shoot traditional REAL black powder cartridges IF they meet the minimum smoke requirement as established by 15 cc's of 777 black powder SUBSTITUTE.

Let me elaborate on this last one; I shoot real black (Schuetzen and Swiss) which smoke less then most BP's and certainly less then 777. Smoke is dependent on the humidity and weather conditions i.e. it varies. Furthermore I have no idea what 15cc's of anything is. 15 grains yes, 3 drams of course but 15 cc's? Talk REAL units; grains by volumn or weight not this sissy cc stuff.

They call it Cowboy Action shooting yet where is the ACTION? Most matches I have been to or observed are stand and dump. As Sundance said; "Can I move?......"

They call it Cowboy Action shooting, a chance to assume a personna and dress up as in the Old West. Its very hard to talk the finer points of handling and shooting a Walker Colt when the said shooter is named Puking... something and is dressed like Howdydoody.

You know.... that felt good!!

Now, if you want authenticity and a lot of fun I suggest NCOWS.

[mec]

"It's like any other shooting sport. You start out with people shooting real guns, but then the gamers come in and drive everyone else out with their hyperexpensive, purpose-built, useless-for-anything "

Bingo. It happens will all of them. I remember when the metallic silhouette thing was new. You could show up with your field revolver and have a good time. After a while the guns started looking like chair legs with barrels. When the American rifleman showed a picture of a dude in a cowboy hat with a contender wearing a 10x rifle scope screwed into his ewy and his support hand pinky finger extended upward from the top of the scope, I knew I'd never go near a Metallic silhouette shoot again.

[Whisk]

I thought the name mec was in the book Papillon?

Anyway the word "plan" was used too. When someone around here on the rancho says they have a "plan" I always think of what it meant in the book!

But I digress..... NCOWS around here is mostly women from whay I've seen. Is it really bettern' SASS?

[FLATWOODS FRED]

WHISK,
Its N.C.O.W (National Congress of Old Wst Shootists) not

N.O.W.:barf:

Its a small organization but they really stress authenticity. Non of this B-Western crap. Its actually accptable and indeed encouraged to show-up with neat hardware such as a Spencer repeater or a Star revolver.

Another neat organization is GAF (Grand Army of The Frontier) They are a small outfit as well but their annual muster is awsome.

[Sarge]

The best thing I can say about CAS is that it gets folks out shooting who might not otherwise; this has two positive side effects. First, these psuedo-cowfolk hopefully care enough about the shooting sports to vote (mostly at least) along with the rest of us. Secondly, their presence (and their wallets) have generated reproductions of fine old guns which might otherwise have faded from the scene.

I kinda like real light loads in bigbore handguns. They are great for garden pests and introducing new shooters the joys of big sixguns. I think their use in any simulated combat competition is counterproductive, but I figured out some time ago that CAS is nothing of the sort. I view it as a live, dress-up arcade game for grownups- and I guess there are worse ways to keep grownups off the streets

[Jim Watson]

"if you do shoot a 97 (which is allowed) then you have to single load."

Not so. You can load it with two at a time... but with the hotshot techniques it is actually faster to single load. Looks like cowflop, though.

The new Communist Chinese copy of the '87 lever action shotgun can be set up for a "drop two" loading to save time, though it is still not as fast as a pump or even a well set up double.

I started in CAS over ten years ago and have seen it slide. But I have also seen it grow. Maybe they will vote right.

Uncle Jim
SASS # 3879

[FLATWOODS FRED]

Jim thanks for the correction;

I hope no one takes offense to my previous post. It was more in fun then anything else.

CAS has indeed gotten a lot of folks out shooting and has indeed fostered a new industry nich and revitalized others. Of that I am indeed greatful. However, sometimes I wonder if the the drive to bring in new shooters has compromised the sport. For instance, numerous times I have seen stage ideas rejected because "they may be too difficult and discourage the less expereinced or new shooters..." Yes, I agree that may be true but on the otherhand you need to keep the interest of the more experinced folks and encourage the new folks to improve.

This usually comes up in regards to the use of shotguns. To me, blasting away at a steel plate with a scatter gun has no appeal what-so-ever. However, throw some clays in and now it becomes interesting and the gun is used for what it was intended for.

Not everyone is going to be Annie Oakley or John Wesly Harding. However, we CAN be challenged to lean new skills and improve on what we have. Iam sure on the local level the personality of the club has a lot to do with it. Some are imaginative and challenging. Others may be down right sleepers.

[mec]

" when the said shooter is named Puking... something and is dressed like Howdydoody...."

Cowabonga! that was probably the best line in your post. the rest of it however; was great too. They shouldn't rag on Venturino too much. He has done a lot to publisize the activity and even advised modern shooters to thank the CAS people for the current proliferation of western guns, cartridges and components.

somebody on one of the cowboy boards irratated one of the top custom pistol smiths about something and he posted a demurral calling them a bunch of faux cowchildren. One guy thought that was neat and adopted it for a handle.

[Whisk]

The best part of cowboy action shooting is mounted

Period

It takes a real committment to train, feed, care for, transport, board (unless like us you work off them and keep them anyway), etc. your horse.

You can't just throw on some phony duds and be a dude!

Ever shoot ahorseback fron a horse that don't like gunfire?

Haaaaaaa!

Now THERE's a rodeo for ya!

[Eghad]

Well I dont know about other CAS clubs but where we shoot having fun is no. 1. The #1 reason you dont want hot loads is you are shooting at steel plate. I have been to a few shoots now and I dont take my shooting glasses off. I have been zinged by lead twice now. The standard Cowboy loads for .45 Colt aint nothing to woof at.

I see a lot of older guys shooting where I go who shoot .38s or .32s. The reason is that they simply cannot take the recoil with arthritis and stuff.

In Cowboy Classic you have to shoot a .40 caliber or better, so there is a distinction between calibers.

Each Category has its own costume requirments.

also that .410 guage is only allowed in the buckaroo class. Which means it probably was a local match. The regional and national matches dont have as much leeway as a local matches.

The majority of folks like me come to have fun,fun, fun, fun.


those multicolored scarves are known as wild rags.

This guy was on the Lewis and Clark expedition not a gay pride parade:

Drouillard noted a yellowhandkerchief on his head, a bright blue and white checkered shirt under a white linen frock, a blue and red woven sash, garters
and blue wool leggings. His moccasin flaps were edged with blue and red wool. Seems like colorful has been around a while.

Imagine having dangly things hanging off you....might want to ask Buffalo Bill..lol

some FYI on fring or them dangly things as you call them:

In rain, fringe would soak up water, keeping some of the water from settling so much on the material itself. The fringe also provided string for repairing tears. It is also said that fringe helped hide the person, because simple fitting clothing without the fringe décor provided a more complete profile of a man, whereas the fringe could trick the eye.

You must have never seen a pair of angora chaps or woolies...lol

[oldbillthundercheif]

If lead splatter is such a problem, why don't you MOVE THE TARGET BACK?

The reason they are catching back-spash is because the 3'x3' steel target is no more than 4ft in front of the muzzle.

I am well aware that folks wore some crazy garments way back when, but those photos you posted look nothing like the fruity garb I have seen these new "cowboy" shooters sport.

[pohill]

Eghad, can I ask you where I could find that picture of Cody's coat? I just want to see a larger version of the picture (I tried to enlarge that one but it didn't work).
Thanks.

[Whisk]

I work around real cowboys most every day and we all dress pretty plain

Wranglers, ropers, palm leaf hats, white oxford shirt for dress up.

But mebbe in the old days those dudes wore colorful ****. Life was tough back then so mebbe they tried to brighten things up.

But nontheless I still say some of these dudes are just that -- dudes.

Oh well..... To each his own. I'd just as soon not look like a SF gay pride parade particpant who took a wrong turn a ways back tho!

[Eghad]

If lead splatter is such a problem, why don't you MOVE THE TARGET BACK?

The reason they are catching back-spash is because the 3'x3' steel target is no more than 4ft in front of the muzzle.

I am well aware that folks wore some crazy garments way back when, but those photos you posted look nothing like the fruity garb I have seen these new "cowboy" shooters sport.

They dont move the targets back because nobody wants to come out miss a bunch of targets while shooting on a timer. The idea is to make it fun. Plus not to mention the fact that they have some stages where you have to shoot the targets in different orders.

I wonder if those guys were shooting in the B Western Class and were dressed something like this.



maybe Roy isnt telling us something...lol

[Whisk]

Eghad

I knew a Colonel in the AF who was stationed at George AFB. He said Roy would come in the Officer's Club and have a few pops with the fighter pilots from time to time.

I really don't think there is ANYTHING Roy is not telling us....... According to the good Col, Roy was quite a man!

[Bill T]

Competition drives this sport. It was much the same in the Bianchi Cup in it's first few years. It didn't take long to up the anty with equipment to the point now it's decided by X count, and not total score. That in itself isn't so bad. In the Bianchi Cup it's opened up new classes. Rob Leatham almost always exclusively competes in the "non race gun" catagory now a days. The same will happen here. I'm sure there will be a "standard gun" catagory of some type introduced sooner or later that will address this "issue", if it has in fact become one. As far as the dress, it goes with the territory. These same guys that bitch about the outfits worn by CAS shooters I'll bet don't utter a word except "WOW!" when they see some babe on the back of a Harley dressed in skin tight black leather! Bill T.

[MacGille]

I quit CAS as couple of years ago mainly because of the proliferation of "gamers". I once tried to stop the shooting of a man because I thought his cartridges were misfiing and lodging in the barrel. After being hooted off the range I realized that he was shooting .38 spc. loaded down to about 350 fps. I saw children who had no idea of the power that was inherent in their firearms shooting as fast as possible at man shaped targets. I thought that to be a lousy idea for youngsters.
To be fair, I did enjoy CAS, the clothes, and the idea of grown men playing cowboy with live ammo. Knowing all the time that the Wild West was largely fiction and wishful thinking. A lot of the characters and scenes were directly out of Hollywood and we didn't take ourselves too seriously. I shot black powder cartridge and had a lot of fun, especially when some of the shooters were awestruck at the smoke and blast of full power BP loads. I wore my holsters backwards ala Wild Bill Elliot and could out draw (safely) most of the others. I never tried to "win" a shoot because I couldn't bring myself to look that foolish on a shooting range. Using two hands to cock and fire a SA pistol and running from station to station. I loaded two rounds of 12 ga at a time in my '97 Winchester and could fire at two targets as fast as anyone.
All of that said; I don't look down on anyone who participates in a shooting sport. We are all exercising our 2nd Amendment rights. I don't shoot CAS anymore because of the time required to load 300 rounds a week. the expense of maintaining a whole arsenal of replica arms that are shot extensively, the time and expense of maintaining a wardrobe that is useless for anything else. And, the time and expense to travel to all the great shoots that are held. I do wish that the "Gamesmen" would all go back to IPSC though and leave CAS for the rest of us who just want to fantasize and have fun. Incidently I learned about mounted shooting when I was in death valley with a bunch of friends and took a shot at a sidewinder. I found myself sitting on the sand next to a very startled snake while my horse decided to go home without me. Snake went one way and I went the other. My horse was a great roping horse, but I never thought about gun training her. (s) "Riverboat Bill"

[FirstFreedom]

I will just say that it's interesting how this thread really struck a nerve among the CAS shooters. Seems like *something* needs to be done, if they want to broaden the appeal, and not alienate so many folks.

[Robereno]

Struck a nerve?? LOL - I’m still waiting for any of the SASS people to respond. Thought this was going to be a hot topic.

I’m not a member of SASS but I have considered it. Basically it just seems to be a group of paunchy old white guys (like myself) who enjoy shooting and don’t take it too seriously. (Not like that spooky SHTF crowd).

[FLATWOODS FRED]

The dress dosen't bother me as much as the Gamers. Watching a grown man with a big 45 Colt plink away at a steel plate as fast as he can with gamer loads just doesn't hold any atraction or interest. (nor does that girl on the Harley with the tramp stamp and painted on leather. A little tatoo removal and a nice skirt, throw her on an old Norton or Triumph and now were getting somewhere.

In the end it all comes down to personnal taste and the all mighty dollar. Remember SASS is a for profit. Therefore all decisions are based on the best way to generate new members (money),and lucrative endorsements (money)

Iam surprised the SASS police haven't jumped all over this thread too.

Now mounted shooting. Thats looks like something that could keep me interested. Though the last animal I ever saddled was a poor hog in the confines of my Aunts barn. No, my brother didn't ride to the bell and how were we to know that a fancy English riding saddle aint made for a hog and cost a lot of money. Yes, my brother's pupils did eventually equal out. Yes, we did get a good whooping.

[Whisk]

That drew a for sure from me Mac -- talkin' about your horse not bein' used ta shootin'.........

I'm too old for personal rodeo's........

I leave those green horses to the boys.

But the spooked horse brought back some memories and a big

[Bill T]

"I’m still waiting for any of the SASS people to respond."

"I am surprised the SASS police haven't jumped all over this thread too."

They are probably worried the mods will lock it up if they do! Bill T.