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Old April 11, 2013, 08:03 PM   #26
shouldazagged
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Mouse gun? I've pocket-carried a 21 ounce steel J-frame .38 Special daily for over twelve years, with no problems. I feel adequately protected with the 640 and the old FBI load, plus one or two Bianchi Speed Strip reloads.

But then, as a friend of mine once put it, "I stopped running when they quit chasing me."
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Old April 11, 2013, 09:34 PM   #27
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.....and a larger grip change is often recommended because the magnum mini tends to jump out of the hand using the small birds-eye grips.
I can't agree with that statement....I have a NAA Pug (.22 mag) as well as the aforementioned Sidewinder (.22Mag & .22LR). With the factory grips I experience no hand jumping behavior. I've seen people (new shooters especially) have more issues hanging on to a full sized handgun.

Deaf Smith....the Sidewinder is fun. It is not as forgiving on the brand of .22Mag ammo as is the Pug. It prefers a lighter weight bullet and not so much the more seemingly popular heavier grain loads. I guess in the long run, it makes little difference as it will be pushed into use just before I make a grab for my knife. If I get down to the .22Mag and my knife, things have gone way wrong.
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Old April 12, 2013, 10:05 AM   #28
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Keltec pf9 is plenty accurate at self defense ranges.Its obvious the shooter complaining about 9mm cartridge accuracy needs to be taught how to shoot correctly and put in more time on the practice range.
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Old April 12, 2013, 11:01 AM   #29
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I know the pocket 9s are"combat accurate".

I come from a time when rifles that didn't shoot into an inch at 100 and handguns that wouldn't do the same at 25 were routinely sold down the river.
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Old April 12, 2013, 11:08 AM   #30
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Some years back we were testing Winchester .45ACP Black Talon into water.
We fired rounds from a 5" Colt Government and the rounds opened fully.
We fired rounds from a 4.25" Colt Commander and the rounds only opened about half as much.
We fired rounds froms a 3.5" Colt Officer's ACP and the rounds were barely deformed.

The short barrels had a great effect on Black Talon .45ACP.
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Old April 12, 2013, 11:40 AM   #31
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On those occasions when I find it impractical to to be armed with a large sidearm, I often carry a Beretta 950 in .25 calibre.

Since I have expended sufficient time and effort to consistently hit the head at seven yards, I feel comfortable with this little gun. The Hornady XTP ammunition that I load it with registers 950 FPS on a chronograph. Speer's Gold Dot ammunition is only slightly less powerful at 875 FPS.

In my opinion, it fits in well with the three basic rules of self defense.

1. Avoid trouble if possible
2. Have a weapon and be prepared to use it if necessary.
3. Possess the necessary skill to use it effectively.

Obviously, should it become necessary to actually engage another human being, I would much prefer to be armed with a very powerful sidearm like my 9MM SIG-Sauer. Unfortunately, that is often not practical.
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Old April 12, 2013, 09:13 PM   #32
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My EDC gun is a NAA Mini Revolver in .22WMR with the really long way-out- there 1 5/8" barrel. I have no trouble controlling it even when rapid firing, and 5 shot accuracy at 7 yards is well within a 3 inch circle with Federal 50 Grain HPs.

This ain't your father's .22Mag. Nowadays, Winchester, Hornady, Federal and others have developed loads specifically tailored for mini revolvers, producing thousand feet-per-second velocities out of one-two inch barrels with bullets delivering good penetration and reliable expansion. You do NOT want to get hit with one.

Because this weapon is so easilly controllable, I can put 5 aimed shots out there about as fast as anyone trying to control an over-powered mini-auto chambered for a cartridge all out of proportion to its weight and grip size. I do not feel undergunned.

But, most important,because the Mini Revolver doesn't require any special wardrobe accomodation like a belt or holster, my NAA will tell you it never, ever, gets left at home. That's something very few carry guns can say.

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Old April 14, 2013, 08:38 PM   #33
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wee little guns

My always is a 22LR NAA mini.
Its back-up is a 22LR Taurus PT22.
I think wee guns are best served by the 22LR cartridge.

Anything bigger might as well be a J-frame in 38 Special (NOT 357 Magnum), or bigger.
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Old April 15, 2013, 01:04 PM   #34
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I think wee guns are best served by the 22LR cartridge
That's exactly what I suspected, however the markets are talking a diferent language, where its just a matter of time until the first .45 under 5inches overall lenght is presented...
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Old April 15, 2013, 07:01 PM   #35
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Wee guns. Sounds like what you might use on a leprechaun who's a wee bit stingy with his lucky charms.
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Old April 15, 2013, 07:11 PM   #36
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.22 Magnum is a good defensive round, especially in warm climates where clothing is thinner and lighter. The NAA minis are a good choice for an "everywhere" gun that won't drag you down. Good quality and reasonable prices.
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Old April 16, 2013, 05:30 AM   #37
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Sounds like what you might use on a leprechaun who's a wee bit stingy with his lucky charms.
Well, to begin with I'm from Europe, saying that the common intruder and burglar is usually not heavily armed around here. However, when the BG comes after me with a crow bar or a knife, I prefer the tiny .22 I might also carry when I'm relaxing at home over the full-sized 9mm that is in the other room for sure...
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Old April 16, 2013, 08:22 AM   #38
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The question is: How significant is the drop of ME with a barrel, say, half the lenght?
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/calibers.html
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Old April 16, 2013, 10:47 AM   #39
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Great, thanks!

A lot of calculation to convert all these figures to metrics. The real interesting item is the ENERGY, after all, not the velocity. Since I don't go along well with the imperial system, I have to convert grains to gram and feet to meters before I can get to the energy.

Great site, anyway!
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Old April 16, 2013, 12:25 PM   #40
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There are definately pros and cons to having a more potent round for a pocket pistol. In general I think people put too much weight on the caliber of a gun. I say this for two reasons.

First of all, in about 92% of self-defense situations where a gun is drawn, no shots are fired. Just showing the gun stops the threat. In that case the caliber of the gun plays a very small, if any, role. How does the bad guy know if that is a .380, a 9mm, or a .40, or does he even really care? Bottom line is he doesn't want to get shot, so stops what he is doing and runs. So, in the overwhelming majority of cases, having a gun.... ANY gun, is the important part.

The second reason is something that I think we all agree on, and that is, if shots are fired, the ability to shoot the gun well, trumps the caliber almost every time. A couple of well placed shots from a .22 are much more effective that a miss from a .45.
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Old April 16, 2013, 06:23 PM   #41
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I'm probably one of the last supporters of the .32 Auto. FMJ loads out of pocket pistols get 13"+ of penetration consistently, and aren't shot placement and penetration the most important things in a defensive shooting? Given the FBI recommends 12" of penetration for handguns, a .32 Auto slug will kill someone just as dead as a 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 Auto if you learn to shoot it.

Another unpopular opinion I hold is that .45 Auto sucks somethin' awful out of short barrels. Velocity, energy and penetration plummet and reliability (in most subcompact .45 Auto platforms) suffers. You lose capacity and gain absolutely ****-all sticking .45 Auto in a tiny gun where a higher pressure, faster-burning cartridge like 9x19mm, .40 S&W or .357 SIG works just fine.

That brings me to my last point. .357 SIG is an absolute godsend to the subcompact auto market. A standard defensive 125gr .357 load performs identically to .357 Magnum out of those 2" snub revolvers that are so popular. Due to the faster-burning powder in the .357 SIG it also wastes less power and results in less recoil and report while getting the same results.

Let's use a Glock 33 are our auto example, eh? A G33 is about the same size as a snub-nosed .357 Mag J-frame or SP101, but lighter, and packs double the capacity (9+1 vs 5). So you have a lighter weapon of practically the same size with double the capacity, the same ballistic performance, and less recoil, noise and flash.

Here are some links regarding ballistic data for the .357 SIG and .357 Mag:
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357sig.html
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
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Old April 16, 2013, 06:47 PM   #42
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Mice



About the little .25
Quote:
The Hornady XTP ammunition that I load it with registers 950 FPS on a chronograph. Speer's Gold Dot ammunition is only slightly less powerful at 875 FPS.
I kno that it goes bang but my feeling is that the little gun is best served by the standard 50 grain FMJ at 770+ fps. The newer rounds go faster but shoot a lighter bulletin at 35 grains. The 50 gr bullet has slightly more power even going slower.
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Old April 16, 2013, 08:31 PM   #43
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I'm probably one of the last supporters of the .32 Auto.
You're not alone. I like the .32 acp as well.
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Old April 16, 2013, 08:53 PM   #44
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Check this; it may be of some assistance: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html
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Old April 17, 2013, 11:30 AM   #45
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Darkgael.

I chose the higher velocity rounds for the ,25 on advice of several law enforcement agents. According to their experiences, the heavier FMJ rounds only register 750 FPS and are notorious of failing to penetrate skull bone.
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Old April 19, 2013, 04:29 AM   #46
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I carry a Seecamp .32 in my back pocket. It is my backup/offhand gun. I've tried other options Micro Desert Eagle, Walther TPH, Sig 380, Keltec 380. I always wind up coming back to the Seecamp for that role.
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Old April 19, 2013, 10:41 PM   #47
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Another unpopular opinion I hold is that .45 Auto sucks somethin' awful out of short barrels. Velocity, energy and penetration plummet and reliability (in most subcompact .45 Auto platforms) suffers.
Plummet? Maybe plummet is a relative term and is interpreted differently by different people.

I question the use of the term "plummet" since this past week I got around to running my .45ACP Hornady carry rounds over my chronograph. Out of the 3.3" barrel of my Springfield XD-S....(they don't make too many other .45's any smaller or lighter), the Hornady loads clocked 851 FPS @ 10' from the muzzle. According to the specs on the ammo box (with no barrel length stated), Hornady claims 900 FPS at the muzzle.

I'm sorry, but I don't see a 49 FPS drop in velocity as plummeting....and certainly not in the "sucks" category. I doubt you could tell the difference if getting hit with two bullets, one at 900 and the other at 851 FPS. You stated your opinion is construed as unpopular.....maybe because the real numbers don't back it up?

I know you said "most subcompacts".....but the same round goes faster out of my other XD45 subcompact. (I picked the slowest velocity I've measured to date out of the four .45ACP pistols I own.)
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Old April 20, 2013, 11:32 PM   #48
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BBTI backs up my claim fairly well: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/45auto.html Note the steep downwards trend once you hit 4".

Likewise compare individual tested loads: http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/45auto.html

I certainly see a 20% drop in muzzle energy from 5" to 3" as "plummeting", especially compared to other cartridges that hold their velocity better in short barrels, like the .357 SIG.
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