GP-100 .38 -Black Bears

[barrence]

Hello,

Newbie, first post.

Interesting information on your site.

Need help with a concern. I have a Stainless .38 4" GP-100.
Fixed Sites. Shoots very nicely. Good home defense gun. Bought it in 1988.
Still pretty new. My question - my family and I go pop-up camping in Tenn. and North Georgia mountains. The black bears rarely cause problems in our area but... I was a tent camping several years ago and about 2 a.m. a black had my full and undivided attention. The GP-100 in the .38 version is the same gun as the .357 with a shorter wheel(?) so I think it could handle the most powerful .38 rounds available. What round would you suggest that could stop a 200 + pound black bear. Are there any?
Thanks.

[gb_in_ga]

Short of carefully working up some really hot handloaded heavyweight LSWC loads along the lines of the .38-44 which was pretty close to .357 Mag strength stuff, I'd think that there really isn't such a load, not commercially at least. I have no experience with them, but if the .38 Spl GP-100's actually are as strong as the .357 Mag GP-100's, this should be a do-able thing for the handloader. Nod, nod, wink, wink.

Caveat Emptor.

[barrence]

Thanks for the reply GB,

My information is the .38 GP-100 has the same frame as the .357 GP-100.

Say I had a friend who hand loads. What is LSWC? I am not a hand loader but I have friends who do this.

Barrence

[gb_in_ga]

Lead Semi-Wadcutter. They are quite common, and are primarily used for 2 purposes: Light to moderate loads are used for target practice, as they cut nice, clean holes in the targets similar to wadcutters, but with better downrange ballistics. Loaded hot, they are hard hitting penetrator loads suitable for, say, bear defense. I'd go with at least a 158 gr bullet using an alloy that is as hard as possible and you probably will want a gas check as this will need to be a really hot load.

Keep in mind that GA hunting laws mandate expanding ammo for hunting large game. I can't remember right offhand if that rule applies to field defense against 4 legged threats. If so, you might have to go with a heavy JSP instead -- which in this application is actually a less effective bullet design. For that matter, GA laws might prohibit "hunting" for large game with a .38 Spl entirely -- but they do allow .357 Magnum. Again, I'd have to check, I can't remember right offhand. That said, I'd advise doing some homework and checking out the regulations involved.

You might be easier served by picking up a used S&W .357 Mag K frame on the cheap. I really consider the .357 Mag to be the low end of acceptable Black Bear defense, anyway -- and it gets around the problem of meeting minimum legal requirements. Besides that, what we are trying to do is to emulate the .357 Mag with .38 Spl handloads. If you actually have a .357 Mag, then the whole exercise get a whole lot easier and less liable to blow up in your face.

[roy reali]

If you are going to face a raging, 200 pound bear, I suggest a back up plan. You need to be in the company of folks that you can outrun.

[Webleymkv]

You might try to locate a box of .38+P+ Police only stuff. It's not very common and kind of rare but it can be had if you want it bad enough.

[gmeister]

You occasionally hear of bears being killed by 9mm or even, very rarely, 22 LR so I guess 38 spl is better than a sharp stick.

If I needed to use a 38 spl for bear defense, I'd look into Buffalo Bore ammo. I have some in 45 ACP and 44 Mag if I think I'm going to meet something really big.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#38spl

[gb_in_ga]

Buffalo Bore -- looking at the 2 offerings in .38 Spl, I see that both of those loads are "short barrel" optimized for defense against 2 legged threats. A better loading would be one like that first one listed for .357 Mag -- a nice hot and heavy 180 gr hard lead flat nose. Now, that's a load that's intended for bear defense.

[Gazpacho]

If you are handloading, then load up 158gr lswc HARDCAST bullet to the maximum +P formula. Don't worry about accuracy. You want a hardcast bullet because it will stay together longer and give you the most penetration.

Also, I'd recommend grinding off the front sight, cause it's gonna snag as you cram the barrel down the bear's ear canal.

What you really need is a good bear alarm. The best is about 20 pounds of fried bacon in a cheese net. Hang it in a tree above the pop-up camper 5 to 7 campsites away from yours. When the bear climbs through that pop-up camper to get to the bacon, the occupants will kindly notify you of the bear's interests.

I got a pop-up camper too, but it's a hardside Chalet. When I took it up to Yellowstone, I was happy about the large number of tents and canvas pop-up campers surrounding me.

[WillBrayjr]

Cor-bon makes 38spl+P+ ammo thats just under 357mag performance.

[gb_in_ga]

Cor-bon makes 38spl+P+ ammo thats just under 357mag performance.

While that may be true, they don't have a load like that that has a heavy penetrator bullet. Those loads aren't really appropriate for field defense, in other words.

But they do have appropriate loads in .357 Magnum.

[barrence]

Thank you for your input.

Lots to think about.

The bear I came across was not rampaging, just foraging for food and was most definately not afraid of me. He or she couldn't have cared less that I was there. Fortunately It just moved on. I have read that bears are afraid of humans. My luck - this one didn't read. The question that lingers is what if he hadn't moved on. The used .357 is probably the most sensible idea but I can't do that right now. I do have small children and I want an insurance policy with me when I camp.
You have all given me some good information and I do have a friend that handloads. I'm taking the information you have kindly provided to him and see what we come up with.

Thanks again.

B.

[WillBrayjr]

Here's the problem, the 357mag won't fit in a closed cylinder of a 38spl revolver.

[gb_in_ga]

Here's the problem, the 357mag won't fit in a closed cylinder of a 38spl revolver.

Yes, I'm quite aware of that -- I have revolvers chambered in both .38 Spl and .357 Magnum and know the difference quite well. That's why I suggested earlier that the better solution is to pick up a used S&W K frame .357 Mag on the cheap -- that way you can pack an appropriate round without having to worry about handloading at the extreme limits of the capabilities of the .38 Spl. For that matter, you can pick up commercial ammunition that is actually designed for this purpose in .357 Mag, as I pointed out. And its not like used K frame .357 Mag revolvers are all that expensive, you know.

[Russ5924]

You shoot a bear with a .38 chances are all you will do is make him mad and you wouldn't like that

[WillBrayjr]

Yeah, the Classic Smith-19 Combat Mag revolver. It's one of my favorite guns

[gb_in_ga]

Barrence -- Ok, I understand your situation. Just tell your friend to load up some extra-hot +P stuff using hard lead 158 gr semi-wadcutters (Lyman #2 alloy is common and will be ok), as that's about the best you are going to be able to do in .38 Spl. And tell him to make up a prettty good batch of them, as you are going to have to do some practicing with this load.

I'm just about 100% positive you aren't going to be able to find anything like that load commercially, the vast majority of .38 Spl ammo is going to be light target stuff or loaded for SD against 2 legged adversaries -- neither of which are suitable for bear defense. The ammunition manufacturers figure that people who venture into bear woods will carry at least a .357 Mag. I'm one of them -- I carry a 4" S&W 686 in .357 Mag in the same territory you are talking about. Since .357 Mag is a more capable platform, that's what the ammunition manufacturers use for the heavier bear defense stuff -- at a minimum.

[625]

Since many reasonable people consider the .357 180 gr. hard cast round as a "bear" minimum for blackies, I'd suggest no .38 round would be adequate. Many think the .44 Magnum is a better minimum. You'd be wise to have enough or too much gun when faced with dangerous game, than have too little.

[gb_in_ga]

You shoot a bear with a .38 chances are all you will do is make him mad and you wouldn't like that

Yes, I know that -- that's why I'm either trying to push the hotter platform (preferred solution), or failing that (as seems the case) suggesting that the next best solution is to take that overbuilt .38 Spl he's got and make some ammo that emulates .357 performance (ala .38-44) with the proper type of bullet. I think it can be done, if done carefully. But I wouldn't want to be the guy in the field testing it out.

[shoots awe lots]

The best weapon for camp is a camp gun, get an old twelve guage single shot and cut barrell just over 18", then cut old stock to hand only size or buy a pistol grip handle, pack away and take out at nite when bears come around. If you want to take on a blackie with a 38 do it with your buddy right beside you, that way when bear charges shoot buddy in foot and run like heck . Get a can of compressed air horn and try that before shooting a bear, if you camp in NC off blue ridge pkwy that is federal and you don't want to get caught with a gun there.

[Invicta]

A .38 might work on a 200 lb bear but I wouldnt count on it. Blackbears can get pretty big, here in PA a few 600-800 lb. bears are killed every year. A .38 would'nt do anything to a bear like that.

[rha600]

if he is just curious and not already pissed at you, just firing anything into the air would probably scare him off.

[WillBrayjr]

Unless it was a 1/1,000,000 shot. Bullets are like tornadoes, no matter the size they can do things people don't think are possible

[nefshooter]

I much rather be spraying lead than pepper spray but check this out watch the video. I know I have been sprayed with it. The Feds may not give you such a problem if you are on Government land. www.udap.com

[rnovi]

There's been a lot of good advice here from a lot of folks who care.

1. Buy a bigger gun: Probably the best advice, but not doable as per Barrence's comments.

2. Buy some noise (aka: shoot the gun in the air): ie: LOUD cherry bombs. I used to do a lot of back country back packing and have seen more than a dozen bears - some much closer than I would prefer (sleeping out under the stars...and seeing a bear walking through camp not 15 feet away...). I carried cherry bombs (the highly illegal kind bought in Mexico) in my pack with a couple of strike anywhere matches taped to the fuse. Think of them as a strike anywhere flash bang of sorts. HIGHLY illegal and quite prone to causing fires. They could also just piss the bear off and scare it into attacking you. In retrospect, I'm glad I never had to use them. Still, it's worth mentioning.

3. Bear Mace/Pepper spray: damn good suggestion. And also good to keep next to the bed for non-lethal "intruder deterent".

4. A hot .38 spec in a GP100. Well, if that is what you have to use, then that is what you have to use. A .38 is better than nothing and while it is sub-optimal, properly loaded it might do the trick. A 200# bear is much more "defensable" than a 600# bear.

Hot .38 load comments (all information below comes straight from the Alliant website)

Per the Alliant website:200grain lead RN bullets:

.357 mag load: 10 grains of 2400 on a 200 gr bullet = 1,245 fps
8.2 gr. of Blue Dot on a 200 gr bullet = 1,225 fps

.38 spec load: 5.3 grains of Blue Dot on a 200 gr bullet = 850 fps. This is NOT listed as +p on the alliant site.

.38 spec +P load: 7.1 gr. of 2400 on a 200 gr bullet = 890 fps.

I would think that a 180 grain bullet at 1100fps or a 200gr bullet at 1000 fps should be the minimum goal for bear defense. Obviously pushing a 200 grain bullet at 1000fps in a normal .38 special would be +p+ at a minimum and should be worked up to very, very carefully.

If you started with the .38 Blue Dot load at 850 fps, working up an additional 150fps is not a huge stretch in a GP100. Pushing a 200gr bullet to 1000fps should be doable.

You would need to work up to it carefully, checking for pressure signs at every opportunity.

Edited to add: In every case with a bear the preferred goal is NOT to have to engage the bear. Bears don't like loud noises. Banging pots/pans has been quite effective in driving a bear off temporarily. That should drive the bear off long enough to at least get you to the car to get the heck out of dodge. The ONLY time I'd even recommend attempting lethal force is if you simply have no other options.