Handloading subsonics?

tools · April 7, 2009, 08:45 PM

Does anyone have any good loads for subsonic .223?

AlaskaMike · April 8, 2009, 09:46 AM

Well, since nobody has replied yet I'll take a stab at it. I don't reload .223, but the concepts of subsonic loads aren't that complicated.

1. You'll probably want the heaviest bullet your barrel can stabilize well. The faster the twist, the heavier the bullet you can use.

2. Subsonic simply means low velocity, so you'll most likely be using pistol powders. In low velocity .30-06 I've used 2400, and IMR-4227 with good results. However those loads still weren't subsonic. You may end up using faster powders.

3. If you do have to use pistol powders to achieve your velocity goals, you'll have difficulty cycling the action if your firing these in a gas-operated semi-auto. My M1 Garand won't even eject the fired casing with any pistol powder.

4. Jacketed bullets and sub-1000 fps velocities can be dangerous. With the friction of the jacket material, the slower you go the higher the chance of lodging the bullet in the barrel. I don't know how low you can safely go. With cast lead bullets you can go substantially slower because the friction of those bullets is much less than those of jacketed.

Again, I've not done what you're trying to do so my recommendations are simply guesses and I could certainly be wrong. Hopefully someone who's actually got experience with subsonic .223 will reply.

Good luck,
Mike

kraigwy · April 8, 2009, 10:08 AM

Yeap, I load a lot of reduced loads for 223s, 308s, & 06, in 50 foot gallary shooting, using the NRA 50 Ft Small Bore targets. I use cast bullets at around 800 fps. using mostly Unique. Works for SF as in Offhand and SF prone. I push them (223s) up to about 2200 fps for RF practice.

Good cheap practice and quite enough not to disturb wife's naps.

Zak Smith · April 8, 2009, 03:47 PM

I have loaded subsonic .223 and .300 Whisper, and .308.

There is no need to use a heavy bullet. You want the bullet to be stable in flight, especially if you are using a suppressor. For the same weight, a shorter bullet with more mass away from its center axis will be more stable than a longer one that has more mass concentrated around its axis.

In .223, I have used pistol powders in the speed range of Unique, Titegroup, N320, etc. The load will probably be somewhere between 3.0 and 5.0gr for a 55gr bullet. ALWAYS CHECK TO MAKE SURE THE PRIOR BULLET EXITED THE BARREL BEFORE FIRING ANOTHER ONE.

In 223, they will not cycle an AR-15 action.

yggorf · April 25, 2009, 02:34 PM

I've had extraction issues with subsonic loads. Do you need to size them with small base dies to get them to extract from the chamber after firing?

Zak Smith · April 26, 2009, 07:56 PM

I've never had a problem with it.

Note that with non-cycling loads in an AR-15, the bolt might start to unlock, which may make racking it feel different.

yggorf · April 28, 2009, 03:49 PM

No, this is some serious extraction issue. Ammo goes in the chamber easily, ejects (without firing) easily, but after firing it takes pounding the buttstock on the group while pulling down the charging handle to eject.

What could be causing this? Is it the use of pistol powder (Titegroup) somehow?

Zak Smith · April 28, 2009, 03:50 PM

What is your load and how do you know it is not overpressure?

yggorf · April 28, 2009, 06:58 PM

3.5 grains of Titegroup, no pressure signs.

Billyb · May 7, 2009, 06:24 AM

I do not load for .223 but load subsonic .308 cast bullets. A good place to begin are the starting loads for cast bullets. Then with a chronograph work your way down in small increments. Say .5 grain.

Here are a some suggested start loads for a.223 54grain cast bullet listed in my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (3rd ed).

Red Dot 5.4 grains, MV 1675
Unique 6.7 grains, MV 1805
SR 4759 11.3 grains MV 1762

You will need to get the MV down to circa 1100 fps depending on altitude and temperature.

I have recently tried to load some subsonic .243 and had a jacketed round stuck in the barrel. It was easily removed using a cleaning rod and the sawn off end of a 5mm brass punch. In this incident it was very obvious that the round had not exited the barrel as there was no noise or recoil.

So as already mentioned, until you are confident with your loads clearing the muzzle check after every round fired.

Also have the tools ready to remove a stuck round i.e. a rod or dowel with a flat end (or the sawn off tip of a brass punch) and a rubber mallet!
Good Luck.

April 7, 2009, 08:45 PM	#1
tools Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2006 Posts: 124	Handloading subsonics? Does anyone have any good loads for subsonic .223?

April 8, 2009, 10:08 AM	#3
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Yeap, I load a lot of reduced loads for 223s, 308s, & 06, in 50 foot gallary shooting, using the NRA 50 Ft Small Bore targets. I use cast bullets at around 800 fps. using mostly Unique. Works for SF as in Offhand and SF prone. I push them (223s) up to about 2200 fps for RF practice. Good cheap practice and quite enough not to disturb wife's naps. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

April 8, 2009, 03:47 PM	#4
Zak Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 1999 Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA Posts: 2,682	I have loaded subsonic .223 and .300 Whisper, and .308. There is no need to use a heavy bullet. You want the bullet to be stable in flight, especially if you are using a suppressor. For the same weight, a shorter bullet with more mass away from its center axis will be more stable than a longer one that has more mass concentrated around its axis. In .223, I have used pistol powders in the speed range of Unique, Titegroup, N320, etc. The load will probably be somewhere between 3.0 and 5.0gr for a 55gr bullet. ALWAYS CHECK TO MAKE SURE THE PRIOR BULLET EXITED THE BARREL BEFORE FIRING ANOTHER ONE. In 223, they will not cycle an AR-15 action. __________________ Zak Smith . DEMIGOD LLC . THUNDER BEAST ARMS CORP . COLORADO MULTI-GUN *My PM inbox full? Send e-mail instead.*

April 25, 2009, 02:34 PM	#5
yggorf Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2009 Posts: 125	Extraction issues? I've had extraction issues with subsonic loads. Do you need to size them with small base dies to get them to extract from the chamber after firing?

April 26, 2009, 07:56 PM	#6
Zak Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 1999 Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA Posts: 2,682	I've never had a problem with it. Note that with non-cycling loads in an AR-15, the bolt might start to unlock, which may make racking it feel different. __________________ Zak Smith . DEMIGOD LLC . THUNDER BEAST ARMS CORP . COLORADO MULTI-GUN *My PM inbox full? Send e-mail instead.*

April 8, 2009, 09:46 AM	#2
AlaskaMike Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Posts: 941	Well, since nobody has replied yet I'll take a stab at it. I don't reload .223, but the concepts of subsonic loads aren't that complicated. 1. You'll probably want the heaviest bullet your barrel can stabilize well. The faster the twist, the heavier the bullet you can use. 2. Subsonic simply means low velocity, so you'll most likely be using pistol powders. In low velocity .30-06 I've used 2400, and IMR-4227 with good results. However those loads still weren't subsonic. You may end up using faster powders. 3. If you do have to use pistol powders to achieve your velocity goals, you'll have difficulty cycling the action if your firing these in a gas-operated semi-auto. My M1 Garand won't even eject the fired casing with any pistol powder. 4. Jacketed bullets and sub-1000 fps velocities can be dangerous. With the friction of the jacket material, the slower you go the higher the chance of lodging the bullet in the barrel. I don't know how low you can safely go. With cast lead bullets you can go substantially slower because the friction of those bullets is much less than those of jacketed. Again, I've not done what you're trying to do so my recommendations are simply guesses and I could certainly be wrong. Hopefully someone who's actually got experience with subsonic .223 will reply. Good luck, Mike

April 28, 2009, 03:49 PM	#7
yggorf Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2009 Posts: 125	No, this is some serious extraction issue. Ammo goes in the chamber easily, ejects (without firing) easily, but after firing it takes pounding the buttstock on the group while pulling down the charging handle to eject. What could be causing this? Is it the use of pistol powder (Titegroup) somehow?

April 28, 2009, 03:50 PM	#8
Zak Smith Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 1999 Location: Fort Collins, Colorado, USA Posts: 2,682	What is your load and how do you know it is not overpressure? __________________ Zak Smith . DEMIGOD LLC . THUNDER BEAST ARMS CORP . COLORADO MULTI-GUN *My PM inbox full? Send e-mail instead.*

April 28, 2009, 06:58 PM	#9
yggorf Senior Member Join Date: April 17, 2009 Posts: 125	3.5 grains of Titegroup, no pressure signs.

May 7, 2009, 06:24 AM	#10
Billyb Junior Member Join Date: May 7, 2009 Posts: 2	I do not load for .223 but load subsonic .308 cast bullets. A good place to begin are the starting loads for cast bullets. Then with a chronograph work your way down in small increments. Say .5 grain. Here are a some suggested start loads for a.223 54grain cast bullet listed in my Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (3rd ed). Red Dot 5.4 grains, MV 1675 Unique 6.7 grains, MV 1805 SR 4759 11.3 grains MV 1762 You will need to get the MV down to circa 1100 fps depending on altitude and temperature. I have recently tried to load some subsonic .243 and had a jacketed round stuck in the barrel. It was easily removed using a cleaning rod and the sawn off end of a 5mm brass punch. In this incident it was very obvious that the round had not exited the barrel as there was no noise or recoil. So as already mentioned, until you are confident with your loads clearing the muzzle check after every round fired. Also have the tools ready to remove a stuck round i.e. a rod or dowel with a flat end (or the sawn off tip of a brass punch) and a rubber mallet! Good Luck.