9mm vs. .45 with a twist

[Tomac]

Well said, RBid.
Tomac

[bricz75]

The switch back to .45 Long Colt did not produce better results. It was not a problem of ballistics, but rather one of poor shot placement and very determined adversaries, using a primitive form of body armor.

Did either the .38 or .45 penetrate that body armor? What was the velocity/ft./lbs. of .45LC in those days?

[jarrodsquito]

I actually have an article coming out soon on personal defense network discussing this. The term stopping power refers back to the late 1800's and early 1900's when smokeless powder came around. The more powerful powder lead to having to use jacketed bullets and lead to a decrease in effectiveness. The military wanted a larger caliber to stop rounds from simply going through a target and thus the .45 ACP was born.

Over 100 years later we have great advances in technology and using a larger caliber round to gain effectiveness is no longer needed. Carrying a
9mm with quality defensive ammunition is much more effective than a larger round.

BTW the difference in power from 9mm FMJ to 45 FMJ in blazer brass is less than 10%. Many people stay with FMJ in .45 ACP because the carry 1911 style pistols which have failure to feed issues because of the 2 piece feed ramp. They refuse to switch guns and believe in mythical powers of the .45 ACP that are actually severely outperformed by 9mm quality defensive ammunition (and even much less powerful rounds for that matter)

http://triggertimeohio.com

[RBid]

Thank you, Tomac.

To all thread participants: Take a break. Go run some drills for speed + accuracy at the same time. When you're done, revisit the subjects of concealed carry firearm and ammunition selection.

A lot of firearms and calibers are very different when you pull the trigger 3-5 times per second than they are when you pull the trigger 1 time every 3-5 seconds.

[zombietactics]

Did either the .38 or .45 penetrate that body armor? What was the velocity/ft./lbs. of .45LC in those days?

Likely not ... .38 Long Colt simply did not have enough force and/or velocity. The .45 Long Colt round was faster, but not fast enough for something of that diameter (12.5mm, if I recall)

In both cases a lead-round-nose projectile was used, which would have been a poor penetrator.

Not all of the Moro wore armor, course. This is only one factor. The fanatical determination of the Moros was legendary, for instance.

The .45 Long Colt probably went around 900-100fps, generating something like 450-475 ft/lbs.

[KenW.]

I've seen deer absorb four or five hits and continue to run until bled out. Also saw a hog take nine hits from a .357 Magnum that failed to penetrate the fat layer.

Wildlife have a serious fight or flight instinct. Many non-warrior humans are convinced that once they're hit they should surrender, fall down, admit defeat, and accept death.

[dajowi]

"A friend of mine told me of seeing a grizzly take eight .32 ACPs" Someone's either optimistic or foolish.

[GJSchulze]

A friend of mine told me of seeing a grizzly take eight .32 ACPs" Someone's either optimistic or foolish.

Well, if that's all he had... then he should have shot the guy that said he saw this and ran!!

[jimjc]

Simply put I believe handgun caliber has little to do with stopping your target and there are reams of documents to prove it. The more shots you can place into the target gives you more opportunities to hit a vital organ, so more follow up rounds the better. Using the latest defensive rounds is another key. I chose the 9mm for the above, not to mention many other reasons. I`m more accurate with the 9mm and follow up shots come quicker, so that's just about says it all for me. Jim

[Webologist]

According to the data from the charts on handloads.com, taken from actual shootings, the best .45ACP loads are somewhat more effective than the best 9mm loads. They overlap somewhat, but there's about an 8-10% increase in one shot stop effectiveness on average. It blurs even more once you factor in +P and +P+ loads.

I can't speak to the reliability of the data on this though. The expansion and penetration figures are supposed to be from rounds recovered from human tissues. I'm not sure how the one stop percentage is calculated. More rounds fired may not mean the first round was less effective. That said, the best .45 ACP rounds have an impressive 96% one stop shot rating with significant 256 actual shootings. That compares very favorably with 83% for the best 9mm loads, with over 1000 shootings. That said police are more likely to use a 9mm and shoot many rounds, often with many officers firing on the same target, so I'm not sure how relevant this is. I'm also not sure how current the data is.

Here's the link to the chart.

The .45 would be my choice indoors, being a relatively low pressure round, it will likely cause less damage to my hearing and low light vision.

I've often thought about what an indoor firefight would be like with my .357 with hot 125 grain JHPs. I imagine after the first shot we would both be standing in stunned silence with ears ringing, unable to see in the dark and my opponent would have no eyebrows, even if I missed.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by Webologist

I've often thought about what an indoor firefight would be like with my .357 with hot 125 grain JHPs. I imagine after the first shot we would both be standing in stunned silence with ears ringing, unable to see in the dark and my opponent would have no eyebrows, even if I missed.

A retired cop coworker of mine has a pretty good story regarding that: They were making an entry on a man who was in a trailer. Once the officers were inside, the man came at the first officer with a weapon of some sort, so the officer shot him with his .357 loaded with hot 125 gr. JHPs. The concussion was huge and the man dropped like a rock and hit the ground, not moving. They went to the downed man, and they quickly realized he hadn't been hit at all and the officer had missed completely. But apparently the flash and concussion were enough to convince the man he'd been shot and he had collapsed anyway.

[RX-79G]

Tunnel rats in Vietnam didn't like the noise of .45 and often used 9mm instead.

Are you guys sure that lower pressure = less noise???? I doubt peak pressure numbers have anything to do with what comes out of the barrel.

If this matters to you, don't guess.

[Hunter Customs]

Tunnel rats in Vietnam didn't like the noise of .45 and often used 9mm instead.

Is that right, who was you with over there?

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[RX-79G]

The same guy you fought the Moros with, Bob.

[4runnerman]

this whole thing comes up all the time. The one thing that keeps coming up is Shot Placement. This is silly. Makes it sound like the 9MM is more accurate.
Shot placement is not a caliber war ,it's a skill war. So both shooters being equal-- I will stay with the 45.

Second- Clothes BG is wearing. Last year I had a old Heavy leather jacket I was throwing out. Very heavy leather jacket. Stuffed it full of paper ( just for filling )
Shot it from 25 yards, Every shot at every angle went into jacket and out back side. Short of a Kelvar Jacket clothes make little to no difference. Again-I will take the 45.

[RX-79G]

First shot placement is going to be the same with any caliber. It's the follow up shots that people are referring to.

[Noreaster]

9mm 159.8 dB
.38 S&W 153.5 dB
.38 Spl 156.3 dB
.357 Mag 164.3 dB
.41 Mag 163.2 dB
.44 Spl 155.9 dB
.45 ACP 157.0 dB

Faster bullets are louder. 9mm Nato is faster than standard 9mm.

[4runnerman]

RX-79G- what you say is true,but follow up shots are very easy on a 45 also.
I did my CCW about 4 months ago. 8 shots in maybe 5 to 7 seconds. All shots in a 4 inch area at 15 ft. And I can't shoot pistol for squat. I like the 9MM also,but in times of need I will take the 45. 9MM is a good practice round, Cheap to shoot and plentiful good round to hone skills. Kinda like the 22 is for rifles. While both are very deadly,I just like the 45.

So being equal in marksmanship- And follow up shots- To the OP- If you can shoot the 45 as good as the 9MM, Bigger is better.

[RX-79G]

Hey, I've done a fair amount of competition shooting, and I don't dislike .45. I've shot .45s that were fast and 9s that are slow. But for two pistols of the same bore height, weight, etc most shooters will produce faster times for the same accuracy or different accuracy for the same times. Given that people often shoot a speed rather than an accuracy level, it isn't surprising that shooters see larger groups when they shoot at combat speeds with heavy recoiling calibers.

[RBid]

First shot placement is going to be the same with any caliber. It's the follow up shots that people are referring to.

Eeexxxxxaaaaaaaccccttttlllllyyyyy.

...and it's not about "shooters being equal". Caliber selection is a single shooter consideration, with the question being, "given similar launchers, which caliber will the shooter be able to get the most hits with, in the same span of time?" Even for guys like Pat Macnamara, Frank Proctor, Larry Vickers, Kyle DeFoor, Mike Pannone, and Jason Falla, 9mm is the common answer.

This isn't to say that 9mm is the only caliber anyone should carry. I do believe that it's the most snappy caliber anyone should carry before learning how to shoot accurately with speed at realistic defensive distances (7 yards and in).

In related news, 1/sec is not rapid fire.

[Webologist]

Given the earlier 96% one shot stops with the best .45 ammo, follow-up shots seem less an issue than one good solid hit. I'm comfortable trusting either, but if the SHTF, I'd prefer my HK .45 USP.

[RX-79G]

That rather contestable 96% is for JHPs. So it has nothing to do with this topic.

[Webologist]

Fair enough. The same resource doesn't show much difference in FMJ performance between them.

[Hunter Customs]

The same guy you fought the Moros with, Bob.

So you were not in Nam, RX-79G.

I was and never once did I see anyone go in a tunnel with a 9mm in their hand.
As a matter of fact everyone in my unit used Uncle Sam's good old 45; that's who gave me my first experience with it.

You also don't believe in power factor, if that's the case why not use a 5.6x15R shooting a 32 gr JHP at a little over 1600 fps?
It's easy to shoot with very little recoil for those fast follow up shots.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com

[Hunter Customs]

So being equal in marksmanship- And follow up shots- To the OP- If you can shoot the 45 as good as the 9MM, Bigger is better.

Very true.

Best Regards
Bob Hunter
www.huntercustoms.com