.22LR, .25 Auto effectiveness throughout history

[tipoc]

Read carefully the first sentance in the quoted part, the animals were already shot or sick and suffering. He didnt hunt them with the gun.

Ah! but I did read it carefully. He argued that the .22 was an effective round for self defense because he was able to kill a wounded elk with it by shooting it in the head. Several others have argued that the .22 is an effective round for self defense because they could walk up to a cow and shoot it in the head and the cows died. Others have argued that the .22 is an effective round for self defense because a friend or relative was accidentally shot with a .22 and died as a result. None of these things have any bearing though on whether the gun is as effective as other choices for self defense.

By the way a good many people have hunted deer and even bear with a .22l.r. at close range and with one well placed shot to the head or spine the .22 can take game. But beyond short distances and with anything other than head shots it becomes a poor tool for hunting anything but small game. Other rounds will be more useful.

No one here has argued that the .22 is something that can be "nonchalantly dismissed", least of all me. I have argued that it is a very dangerous round and I indicated why I thought so earlier. But for self defense, it is a poor choice. Unless you have no other option.

tipoc

[tenusdad]

I know the odds, but this is a true story of one defensive shooting. A coal miner on route to work one night was confronted with the narrow road blocked by a vehicle. Three men armed with at least one hunting knife, jerked his truck door open, saying they were going to kill him. Other vehicles with witnesses observed the occurrence. The victim armed with a Raven 25 ACP fired killing one attacker, putting another down wounded, while the third jumped a fence as he fled the scene. Just one account, but it doesn’t get more humble than a Raven 25, still it worked.

[30-30remchester]

TIPOC, I have indeed shot many deer and elk with a 22 handgun as stated. However my post is being taken wrong. I apologize for being unclear. I am not recommending a 22 for self defense. I was just stating some actual experence, letting everyone know what penatration the 22 was capable of. An interesting acticle about 22 penatration is on "SNIPERSHIDE". If this mans data is correct, then it should make some of us rethink the lethality of the 22. I am not advocating a 22 for big game hunting. As stated all animals were already hurt and shots at very close range. However penatration is a vital key to lethality. Because most debate on forums is just that, debate, few have much actual experence, and lets hope nobody has vast experence shooting 2 legged creatures. I think that hunting situations can come close to duplicating life threating situations. I have well over 100 projectiles recovered from game, and it does help in terminal studies.

[Cool_Hand]

Looking at a couple boxes of mini mags I have the .22lr 40gr get up to 1235 fps while the 36 grain hollow points get up to 1260 fps. I know its a small round but anything moving at those speeds is deadly in my opinion. My carry and home defense gun is a smith wesson model 60 but to be honest I would feel perfectly safe if all I had was my henry lever action in .22lr

[DG45]

Would you agree with me that the purpose of a defensive firearm is to STOP an attacker, assailant, or whatever before he/she harms you?

Out of any 100 such scenarios, how many do you suppose would be stopped by pulling out a .25 auto? My guess is about 80% of them. I don't have any stats to support that number and you may not agree, but I think thats about right. I think about 80% of potential threats would mess their pants and haul a$$ forthwith. You use your own numbers, depending on what you think.

So, in my view a .25 auto is about an 80% stopper to begin with. A .45 is bigger and scarier, and 90% of BG's would probably split the moment they saw it, so its a better stopper, even before any shooting is required. Again if you don't agree with my numbers, use your own.

By my numbers you may have to actually shoot in 20% of the potential threatening situations with a .25 auto, but only in 10% of them with a .45.

If it does come down to shooting, how effective will the .25 be? I think we can agree that it will certainly not be as effective as the .45. But I think 8 or 9 rounds of .25 auto at close range would stop at least half of the remaining threats.

I think the 45 would stop almost all of them.

So the way I see it the 25 auto is about a 90% STOPPER. The 45 is about a 100% STOPPER. (Well, maybe just 99.9%. Nothing is 100% effective.)Your numbers may be different, but obviously the .45 is more effective and if you can carry one for SD you should. But you probably can't conceal it, and if you can't, can you carry it? If you can't you'll have to find something you can conceal or go without. This thread is about 22's and 25's and thats what I'm responding to, but these days you can buy 380's that are as small as most .25's. I'd say get one of those; I did when the Kel-Tec P3AT became availiable. But before that I carried a Beretta 950 BS .25 auto for a lot of years, because it was the only gun I could find that was truly concealable.... and it would stop a lot of threats. My numbers say about 90%. What would yours say?

[roy reali]

I understand that a .22 handgun is not the ideal defensive weapon. The reason I carry one around here is mainly to plink with. Feral dog and rattlesnake confrontations do happen, and I figure nine shots should help with those.

I do think that putting nine rounds of just about anything in someones face at five paces might tend to discourage them. At short range, with this revolver, I could put most of those shots into someones eyeball. I do think a twenty-two to the eye probably beats a .38 to the belly.

[darkgael]

TIPOC, I have indeed shot many deer and elk with a 22 handgun as stated. However my post is being taken wrong. I apologize for being unclear. I am not recommending a 22 for self defense. I was just stating some actual experence, letting everyone know what penatration the 22 was capable of. An interesting acticle about 22 penatration is on "SNIPERSHIDE". If this mans data is correct, then it should make some of us rethink the lethality of the 22. I am not advocating a 22 for big game hunting. As stated all animals were already hurt and shots at very close range. However penatration is a vital key to lethality. Because most debate on forums is just that, debate, few have much actual experence, and lets hope nobody has vast experence shooting 2 legged creatures. I think that hunting situations can come close to duplicating life threating situations.

30-30R: Glad that you wrote that. I had the feeling that you were being misunderstood. You certainly and clearly weren't advocating hunting Elk with a .22.

It was also good to see those statistics earlier vis a vis the .22 and the .25.
Say what you want about either of them for SD, in the type of pistols that are normally carried - two inch barreled guns - the .25 is the better choice in terms of reliability and power.

Early on there was a comment about stopping power:

SD round must:.........
Knock the person hit with it backwards, at least 5 yards,,,

The image that came into mind when I read that whole post - a good post - was the scene at the Reagan shooting. Reagan got the richochet.
but three other adult males were immediately and completely incapacitated by the other five (?) shots from the .22 pistol that was used. The SS agent who was hit - was folded over and knocked back off his feet. There may be a lot of truth in the comments to the effect that "you are just gonna **** him off if ya shoot'm with a .22" but you couldn't tell that from the Reagan shooting.


Pete

[billcarey]

In the link I posted above a person thought he would stop his neighbors from making noise by intimidating them with a .22. He thought the sight of the gun would scare them into "acceptable behavior". It did not. It angered them. A fight ensued. He shot two of them with the .22. One of the men he shot took the gun away from him and beat him so badly that he went to the hospital. The others held the shooter while the fella who did the beating walked to find a cop.

I don't think it's relevant to the topic but...Based on the few facts offered that could have happened with any caliber and is more about stupid people than anything else. One who pulled a gun without reason and the others who charged him to take the gun away. Regardless, anyone who uses a firearm without legal reason deserves getting their azz kicked. I'm not sure what the IQs are but they were all lucky there was a lifeguard at the gene pool the day they were born. It's a felony in Florida to brandish a gun that way.

[blume357]

and it is better than nothing for self defense. I can tell you right now that if I met you in the woods and you were carrying a 22 I'd leave you alone... no matter what I was carrying... then again I would not be doing you any harm in the first place.

I don't hunt but I do walk in the woods a lot in both SC and NC. and I more often than not have a rifle of one sort with me... but I always have a concealed handgun... and I will admit that it don't matter what woods it is.

[ARDogman]

I'm surprised this thread is even open still. 4 pages so far, and virtually no useful information. Don't take this as a flame to those of you who have contributed so far, it's not intended that way at all. I think we can sum it up by saying that a .22 isn't an ideal carry gun, but nobody doubts it will hurt and could be lethal. Same goes for .25. Anybody knows that something is better than nothing, and I would expect EVERYONE to recognize that .45>.25 or .22 in neutralizing BG.

FWIW, if I brandish a firearm, it's going to go bang. Period. I have no intentions of showing someone my gun to diffuse a situation.

[jhgreasemonkey]

Just some info from an incident when I was a kid. A close family member was hit in the head with a .22lr from about 20 yards. My family member was standing in front of the window when a car drove by and opened fire. The bullet had to go through the window first but was picked out of his head and failed to penetrate. Not really surprising or important information but I thought it useful to the thread.

[spacecoast]

Some of us just have thicker heads than others! Glad it turned out so well for your relative.

[Dwight55]

jhgreasemonkey reminded me of a late friend of mine who had been shot in the head at point blank range with a .22 rifle.

His buddy was a pre-teen with a rifle and no training, . . . somehow turned around and pulled the trigger, . . . the bullet was stopped by John's hard head after it had travelled between the skin and the skull for a couple inches. It was along the left side of his head, in the upper temple area.

His parents took him to a doc in town who removed the bullet, . . . put a bandage on it, . . . sent him home. I don't remember the exact comment John said the doc gave him, . . . but it was something to the effect that 1/4 inch to John's right and he would have been dead, . . . to the left would have completely missed him.

John went on to become a college professor, . . . lived another 60 years or so.

May God bless,
Dwight

[tipoc]

30-30,

I never accused you of advocating hunting deer or elk with a .22. Neither did I misrepresent you. Because your statement was similar to the statements of several others I used it to make a point. You said you had put down many injured animals with a shot to the head with a .22. The .22 is a good and useful round for this. But, as I said it's ability to do this does not equate to it's being a good round for self defense against humans or, for example, pit bulls. Neither does it translate to the .22 being a good round for hunting deer, elk, hogs, etc. As I said before the .22 has been used at quite close range to take a great deal of larger game with head shots either out of necessity, by poachers, or as a stunt. But again that don't make it a first choice for self defense. (Pretty soon someone will pop up and offer as how they've seen a NatGeo special where a charging elephant was dropped with one shot from a .22 or how Eskimos hunt Polar Bears with .22s)

I'm surprised this thread is even open still. 4 pages so far, and virtually no useful information.

I disagree. For one we can see that not a single person in this thread has discounted the abilities of the .22 to wound and kill,or underestimated it's dangerousness.

For another we learn that a number of folks believe that because the .22 can penetrate the skull of a man, elk or a cow that it is a useful round for self defense.

I think we can sum it up by saying that a .22 isn't an ideal carry gun, but nobody doubts it will hurt and could be lethal. Same goes for .25. Anybody knows that something is better than nothing, and I would expect EVERYONE to recognize that .45>.25 or .22 in neutralizing BG.

We have learned that a number of folks disagree with the above statements. We also learn that a number of folks will grudgingly admit that other rounds may be better at stopping folks than the .22 "any round" can fail to stop and you have to put the bullet in the right place, etc., etc.

So you do learn some stuff.

tipoc

[billcarey]

We have learned that a number of folks disagree with the above statements. We also learn that a number of folks will grudgingly admit that other rounds may be better at stopping folks than the .22 "any round" can fail to stop and you have to put the bullet in the right place, etc., etc.

Where do you get the "grudgingly admit" part? Nobody on this string has even suggested a 22 or 25 is not a feeble caliber and certainly not "grudgingly" admitted it like their arms were twisted to "admit" something.
If I had to vote on who is truer to the facts it would be with Dwight55. Regardless, please don't speak for what you think I have learned because you don't know

[tipoc]

I made no direct reference to anything you said in my last post Bill. Neither did I refer to Dwight's last post which I agree with. I was thinking of others. Maybe I'm splitting hairs.

tipoc

[ARDogman]

I guess my point is that this whole thread seems to come down to splitting hairs. My thing is that I don't really come to learn what people disagree with or grudgingly admit. I come to learn, as best I can, more about gun stuff

So far, I don't feel like this thread has a lot to teach people about gun stuff. I am not an armorer, or professional in the firearms industry, I'm just an ordinary guy. That said, I have read through this thread and haven't learned one thing about the OP's question/remark that I didn't already know. I'm not going back through this thread line by line, but if someone legitimately disagrees with "

a .22 isn't an ideal carry gun, but nobody doubts it will hurt and could be lethal.

Anybody knows that something is better than nothing, and I would expect EVERYONE to recognize that .45>.25 or .22 in neutralizing BG.

then they are not in touch with reality. Not only that, I don't think it's a fair assessment to say that "a number of folks disagree" with those statements. Remember, "a number of folks" vote for Ralph Nader, dye thier hair purple, etc. Anyway, my point now isn't to get into a pssng match with tipoc, who has a more open mind than I do, and who has a lot to contribute to these forums, the point is, I don't think this thread has a lot to teach people. That's all.

[30-30remchester]

TIPOC, my posts were in reply to others that were saying that a 22 couldn't completely penatrate a skull. As stated earlier most have not had any real experence or very limited experence. I believe hunting situations can duplicate real defense situations. I often carry a 2" Smith & Wesson 38 Special when hunting. Immediatatly after I take an animal I prop it up and try different loads, shooting through the ribs and lung cavity. While this does give real life penatration tests it does not give stopping caractoristics. The part I left out about 22's on big game is, when I missed the vitals, the animals showed virtually no reaction to the shot, this could be interprated at zero knockdown capability. I have also shot a small yearling mule deer that had been hit by a car. I was using a 12 guage loaded with foster style slugs. Range was 3'. The shot was between the eyes, I missed the brain by an inch, the small deer had virtually no reation to the 12 guage either. I dont believe it even blinked. So much for knockdown power of large caliber bullets as well. Though one incident doesnt ammount to much, while I have probably shot 100 large wounded animals with a 22 lr so I have plenty of real life experence in this caliber. Anyway there is some interesting imformation that can be gleemed from this post. Have a good day TIPOC.

[mec]

that experience with the slug sounds like what Phat Phil Engeldrum observed ion one of his Handgun Tests Magazines. He assembled a team of shooters and acquired a pig pin full of hogs-alleged in mexico to get out of Jane Fonda's jurisdiction. The even said they inlisted some Federales. Shot hogs six ways from sunday with everything from large caliber pistols to cross bows and Tanto Thompson with one of his knives and they took pictures. No hog had any immediate or even noticeable reaction to body shots. No "stopping power" was apparent. The only hog that was DRT was one they shot through the head with a 25 auto. (the side of a hogs head is so thin that it will admit just about any projectile._ I don't really have any idea how effective a .25 might be on a given human target. I am aware that teh 35 grain gold dot load pretty closely mirrors what I get with a .22 cci mini mag hp from 4 3/4" ruger Mk II autos and some 6" revolvers. All I know about those is that they have killed a lot of jackrabbits for me.

[Fabiankitchen]

I do not understand why people underestimate the lowly .22lr let alone any other caliber. I have done many tests with the .22lr cartridge and determined that it is one hell of a penetrator at closer ranges out of a moderate pistol barrel. (5.5") with the right round, you can do some damage. With these small fast traveling rounds, it's all about penetration. Leave the hollowpoints for varmints. As for the "Devastators". They seem good for maybe.. Well I'm not sure. You need a hard target to set them off, yet no penetration, defeating the purpose of self defense. But I'd rather have a .22 than a stick anyday. Check this video out- you can call them "homemade Devastators". With a kick!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYLxU...e_gdata_player

There we go. This link should work. My own creation! Incendiary .22lr.

[rodfac]

Well if you're talking squirrels at less than 25 yds with a handgun, I'd say the .22 lr is good enought...the .25 is a mistake in any format...hard FMJ bullet to get the dam things to function, and pricey beyond belief...you's be better off with a .22, all things considered. And yeah, any gun is better than none, if you can scare 'em off with that mini pistol in your hand assuming the BG's can see it. Rod

[Fabiankitchen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYLxU...e_gdata_player

There we go. This link should work. My own creation! Incendiary .22lr.

[SIGSHR]

What happened to the idea that if the first shot doesn't do the job, you keep
pulling the trigger till one does. I agree that the 25ACP and 22LR are not the best choices as a primary gun, not real manstoppers and the chances of getting a eyeball shot-or the back of the neck shot-are slim in The Real World
but we're not limited to 2-shot derringers.

[prm]

And spiders are easier to conceal than a .25 - orionengnr

Hum??? Sometimes size and weight do carry the day.

[PT-92]

I am not one who ever under-estimates the potential lethality in even the small calibers <32.. That said I should think that the .22lr is responsible for a large portion of fatalities (I still have yet to see an actual statistic speaking to this) simply because it's a very affordable weapons systems. Though all guns have increased in price of late historically one has been able to purchase very reasonably priced .22lr handguns or rifles as opposed to the larger calibers. Just thinking outloud...

ETA: Here's a Very Famous Story of a .25ACP "In Action"

http://smallestminority.blogspot.com...ing-power.html