Using a Wilson cartridge case gage...

[dacaur]

or even a sharpie will do, I used that once to figure out why some 9mm gun show reloads wouldn't chamber in a specific gun. (they used .357 dia bullets)

Cover it with sharpie and drop it in a few times, the culprit will be revealed....

You better post back the results.... we are all curious now!

[mehavey]

We are making this harder than it has to be.

1. The OP thinks he may have too much slop in the chamber based upon the fact that the fired
cases don't fit back within the dimensions of the Wilson Gauge.

2. There are two simple ways to confirm or deny this possibility

.....A. See if the bolt properly does not close on a 270 WSM* NOGO headspace gauge
.....B. See if factory/fired cases grow significantly more than 4-6 thousands by use
........of either the Hornady case gauges and/or the RCBS Precision Mic for the 270 WSM*


*(which is the same as a 300 WSM headspace gauge)
http://www.pacifictoolandgauge.com/p...ilty_chart.pdf


This is not rocket science.

[mehavey]

By any chance does the OP have (or can the OP scrounge up) a 44 Special or 44 Mag case?

[Major Dave (retired)]

I don't have any 44 cal pistol brass.

I will take my rifle, some unfired rounds, some fired unsized brass, some fired, resized brass and the Wilson gage to a gunsmith today or tomorrow.

Let him sort it out and educate me.

I'll post his comments.

Actually two different gunsmiths, I think. One at Gander Mountain where I bought the rifle, and one LGS smith.

[dacaur]

No need to take it to a gunsmith. There is nothing weird going on here.

The problem is that the wilson gage is cut to maximum CARTRIDGE dimensions, which is SMALLER than minimum CHAMBER dimensions.

Thats why your fired but not yet resized cases dont fit, because they have expanded to CHAMBER dimensions.

Basicaly, You are using the wrong tool for what you are trying to accomplish.

[243winxb]

. The heads STILL protrude .025" higher than the upper step of the gage.

You need to have a gunsmith check your chamber for excessive headspace. http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...t%20Magnum.pdf .013" would be the maximum amount allowed between cartridge & chamber. Or the longest chamber with the shortest cartridge.

[dmazur]

Not trying to do anything except clarify here, but emphasizing the important parts -

...This is a one-piece non-adjustable, cylinder type gage for checking fired and resized cartridge cases for cone-to-head and over-all length. These gages are not made with chambering reamers but with special reamers giving extra clearance both in front of and behind the shoulder so as to eliminate any possibility of contact except at the gaging point.

They aren't made to either SAAMI cartridge or chamber dimensions. AFAIK, LE Wilson came up with some kind of "oversize diameter" reamer, preserving only head to cone ("headspace") and overall length dimensions. And that's all you can use the gauge for. From personal experience, I know they are not a chamber substitute. (Although their pistol gauges are sometimes useful for that purpose...)

And this is really interesting, from the same LE Wilson instructions link, emphasis added by me -

Setting up full length resizing based off fired cases LE Wilson Preferred Method:
This procedure is advised because of a tendency we have noted the last twenty years of the firearms manufacturers to use larger chamber reamers and to chamber more deeply even for rimless cartridges. We have had fired cases from factory rifles which project well above the maximum step.1. Check your cases in as-fired condition.
2. If the head projects above the upper step, adjust your die as above to where the resized case drops even with the upper step or a little below. The idea is still to push the shoulder back as little as possible to allow easy chambering. The resized case needs only to drop .002 to .003 below the fired case.

So sometimes factory rifles aren't made to SAAMI specs? Wow. Maybe not dangerous, but definitely not a rifle that would be "friendly" to reloaders. With a large case stretch on first firing, I can't see how the LE Wilson procedure described above would be a solution. It wouldn't be as bad as resizing back to SAAMI spec, but it can't make that initial stretch go away.

A rifle with this kind of chamber problems would be a reloader's nightmare, IMO.

Restating what others have said, I would have a gunsmith verify what is going on, or buy some additional tools and verify it for yourself. (Whichever makes you feel more comfortable with the results / fits your wallet.)

[zplinker]

"A rifle with this kind of chamber problems would be a reloader's nightmare, IMO."

Only if you insist on pushing the shoulder back too far when you full length resize. Bump that shoulder back .002", and unless the initial stretching damaged your brass excessively, you will be good to go.

[dmazur]

...With a large case stretch on first firing, I can't see how the LE Wilson procedure described above would be a solution. It wouldn't be as bad as resizing back to SAAMI spec, but it can't make that initial stretch go away.

That was the context. If the rifle has something like 0.025" of headspace, bumping it back 0.002" isn't a workable solution. It reduces further stretch, but can't eliminate the damage from the first firing.

I'm sure the LE Wilson instructions were referring to a case head protruding a few thousandths above the top step, not 25 thousandths...

[dacaur]

if the rifle has .025" too much headspace, the cases would NOT have survived firing. Even as little as .005" too much headspace can cause head separation.... The gun doesnt have a problem....

This is akin to using the handle of a screwdriver to try and pound in a nail. Everyone keeps telling him he needs to call a woodwoorker because his wood is obviously too hard, when the real problem is he is using the wrong tool for what he wants to do, and using it wrong. To check headspace, he needs a headspace gage, and to use the tool he has, he has to resize the case first.

Edit - spelling

[dmazur]

I agree completely. My initial reaction to the 0.040" (which is now 0.025") was that it just wasn't likely. Something else was going on.

My "waste of bandwidth" was an attempt to explain what LE Wilson claims their case gauges can do.

Many of us have had trouble with using them to measure fired cases, but sometimes it is possible. (Fired cases from all four of my .30-06 rifles fit into my Wilson gauge, but one did not until after I had it rebarreled...)

The last thing I can think of (other than what has already been mentioned) is to look at the other end of the gauge. If the case body grabbed and the case experienced 0.025" of stretch at the head, the mouth should still be near the "overall length" steps.

On the other hand, if it is recessed 0.025" or so, I believe this would be strong evidence of interference with the gauge and not 0.025" of stretch.

[F. Guffey]

“Headspace is badly misunderstood, it's all in the chamber, not the cartridge” WHAT??????

Again, I have an Eddysatone M1917 with .016 thousands head space, the first time I fired the Eddystone M1917 it had .002 thousands head space, I off set the length of the chamber with the length of the case, it should be an elementary skill of a reloader to determine the length of the chamber from the face of the bolt to the shoulder of the chamber, another elementary skill of a reloader is case forming (not to be confused with fire forming), again I form first then fire.

An Eddystone with a long chambers is not uncommon or rare, it is not a condition that ‘got that way’ some came that way then there is the arsenal, it is claimed a smith checked M1917 with a different kind of gage, it is claimed he stretched the receivers because of his methods and techniques, being smarter and more cleaver than his accusers, he decided they were as smart as they were ever going to be, and they could not ask HOW? They could not WHY?

There is a lot of quoting Sammie, “Sammie says....” in the quotes the + and –, minimum and maximum is always omitted, back to an elementary skill, the go, no and beyond gage is not checking head space if it is measured in thousands. I determine the length of the chamber, then form cases to off set the length of the chamber.

I do not fire to form, it takes no skill to chamber and then fire when the instructions omit measure first before firing and again after firing.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

Splinker, “no guessing” I am a fan of eliminating wild guestimates, I make gages, things like that have never locked me up, there are a lot of “misunderstood statements” In my opinion the L.E. Wilson case gage is the most underused gage on the market because of the lack of understanding. There are those that refer it as a drop-in gage.

Wilson says steel rule, I say a straight edge with the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

“and that is all the Wilson case gage is used for” spoken like Larry Willis, he has a motive, he sells a comparator(not a head space gage)

many years ago I became a fan of the ‘Leaver Policy’ society, When the shoulder moves out, LEAVER out, .025 thousands? I have fired cases in chambers with .125 head space, Hatcher fired 30/06 cases in a rifle with .080 thousands, he ejected 30/06 Hatcher modified cases with short necks, I ejected 30/06 cases with very, very, very short necks, others have made the same mistakes and experienced case head separation because Hatcher was correct, a new case when fired can not stretch .080 thousands with out case head separation. Hatcher thought the shoulder moved forward, the same as reloaders believe today, they also believe the shoulder is moved back when sizing, and to make themselves sound ‘impotent’ they call it bump, and I say wreck as in rectify as in change, on the Maine coast they use the term ‘stove-in’ to describe the events ‘wreck/rectify’ when describing an event of change, not to be confused with alternating current in the alternator when it produces direct current, we both use the term rectifier, which means change.

I did notice someone introduce the term ‘cone’, that was nice, who knows, in a few years it is possible someone will say taper, as in forming a cone and then put it together to complete the thought they will add ‘apex’.

The Wilson case gage is perceived as an open-ended gage, my Wilson case gages are gages that come open-ended, and, it is up to me to furnish the ends, that makes the tool affordable, the ends of my Wilson case gages, not to be confused with a chamber gage is made complete with a straight edge and the companion tool to the press, the feeler gage, again, I am not a fan of making wild guestimates, I want to know, in thousands the effect the chamber had on the case when fired.

My favorite cases are cases fired in trashy old chambers. cases fired in trashy old chamber are longer from the head of the case to the shoulder than cases fired in minimum length chambers, and cases fire in machine guns? A case fired in a machine gun is on top of my list of favorite cases. Back to the 280 Remington case, almost as useful as my feeler gages. With trashy old cases fired in trashy old chamber, cases fired in machine guns, and, the 280 Remington head space has been eliminated.

Then there is:

http://www.z-hat.com/Cylinder.htm

Too late for me to start over at $2.00 each, less a little.

F. Guffey

[wncchester]

SAAMI doesn't have a +/- tolerance range. For chambers they have minimum and a + tolerance, for cartridges they have a maximum and a - tolerance. There's world of difference between that and a +/- tolerance. And anything cut between the two points is as fully intolerance as anything else.

All makers strive to cut dies within the SAAMI tolerance but no more; what should they aim for, the largest or smallest side even if they wished to do so? Being practicle, they just aim to stay within the limits and that's why saying some brands of dies are made with more "precision" or are 'tighter'/'looser' internally than other brands is laffable.

[HiBC]

More than one way to skin a cat.Mr Guffey did bring up a good point.The shoulder does not blow forward.Firing pin strike drives the case forward.The headspace feature,such as the shoulder,serves as the anvil to support the cartridge.

If,indeed,there was .040 of headspace,it should seriously effect the quality of firing pin srtike/ignition.The extractor is not such a good anvil.

I also believe the initial pressure spike would drive the primer back to the bolt face .040 before the case stretches.The primer would then seem to read very high pressures.

With the cartridge driven forward ,upon ignition the pressure rises and the case obturates,grabbing the chamber walls.The case walls supported by the chamber stay put.

The change takes place between the bolt face and chamber mouth.It takes place in that short section of case wall between the solid case head and the chamber mouth.



This is exactly the process of forming the "stretch ring" that we look for with the bent paper clip,and exactly where case head separations occur.

IMO,for clarity,it is useful to describe the condition of the rifle chamber length as "headspace"

And,IMO,it is useful to describe the difference between the ammunition and the chamber "head clearance"


I believe if the OP's protruding cartridge case was stopping becase its diameter was bearing on the inside of the gage,you would get a locking taper effect.It would be stuck.If it is gaging on the shoulder datum,it will easily fall out of the gage.If there is resistance removing the case from the gage,it is bearing on the od.

You can smoke the case shoulder with a candle.(Yep,gets hot!)

Dropping the case in the gage should show the datum contact.

[F. Guffey]

“More than one way to skin a cat. Mr. Guffey did bring up a good point.The shoulder does not blow forward.Firing pin strike drives the case forward.The headspace feature,such as the shoulder,serves as the anvil to support the cartridge”

A point?


HiBC, I did not say the shoulder with the case body, behind the neck of the case ran to the front of the chamber, I did not say the the firing pin drove the case forward. If what you said was true, Hatcher’s case would have had insipient case head separation, and with .127 thousands head space my cases would have insipient head case big time.

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

Hatcher’s shoulder lack .080 thousands reaching the shoulder, with .127 thousands head space, my shoulder lack .127 thousands reaching the shoulder,

F. Guffey

[F. Guffey]

“...they just aim to stay within the limits and that's why saying some brands of dies are made with more "precision" or are 'tighter'/'looser' internally than other brands is laffable” (laughable)

I had rather laugh with than at but if you insist, laughable is the lack of ability of a reloader (giving advise on the Internet)with a pile of tools on the bench with no ability to determine if the case has been sized before lowering the ram, or a reloader without the ability to measure the case and compare it with specifications furnished in reloading manuals or available from the Internet. Laughable is thumbing through page after page on reloading forms that never mentions transfers and or standards.

F. Guffey