Bullets for a 44mag rifle

[Shadow9mm]

So i have a henry 44mag rifle. Been learning some things.

As i under it most 44mag rifles are .431 groove diameter. I contacted Henry and they stated they use a .430 groove diameter. But im planning to slug it next week.

I cast my own bullets, but have used some factory bullets. The hornady XTP are at .430. However the cool fancy copper bullets i want to play with, the lehighs, barnes, cutting edge, and hammer all use a .429.

Is there any point trying the copper bullets since they are all so under sized and wont seat well, and being solid copper, probably wont obturate the barrel well.

[Unclenick]

Did they say "bore" or "groove" diameter? If 0.430" is the bore diameter (diameter the barrel was bored to before rifling; aka, land diameter) then the groove diameter would likely be in the range of 0.438" to 0.440", so I expect they meant the groove diameter was 0.430".

Your copper bullets probably will shoot OK. They aren't cut by bypassing gas the way lead bullets are, so you don't get as much deformation of bullet shape. Also, for jacketed bullets, the acceleration force will usually bulge them to contact the grooves while they are in the barrel. The solids I am less sure of. They will bulge some, but I don't know how much and would need hardness information about them to work it out.

When you slug the bore, feel for constrictions. They can occur under dovetail cuts into the barrel if the cutter was getting dull or the cutting speed was too fast. If you have them, you will want to lap or firelap them out for the best accuracy.

[Shadow9mm]

Henry stated
Bore diameter of. 423
Groove diameter of .430

My mistake, i corrected it.

[ciwsguy]

Good luck with your 44 lever gun. Mine has been a real booger to find the accuracy sweet spot. I’m convinced it can do no better than 2” at 100 yds. Seems to be the nature of the beast. .432 diameter bullets seem to work best in my Marlin but now wish I had bought a Henry as it has a faster twist rate and reportedly use a better bore size. Also I left the scope on mine permanently. Older eyes and iron sights (especially buckhorn) just don’t get along well.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by ciwsguy

Good luck with your 44 lever gun. Mine has been a real booger to find the accuracy sweet spot. I’m convinced it can do no better than 2” at 100 yds. Seems to be the nature of the beast. .432 diameter bullets seem to work best in my Marlin but now wish I had bought a Henry as it has a faster twist rate and reportedly use a better bore size. Also I left the scope on mine permanently. Older eyes and iron sights (especially buckhorn) just don’t get along well.

I would be happy with 2in at 100yds. So far, discounting 1 bullet in a group of 4, that was unstable and went into the target yawing, best i have been able to do is about 1/2 in at 25yds, or right at 2moa. Whick if i can get my bullets to stabilize anddo that consistently, i would be happy with.

[bamaranger]

I generally always jump in on these .44 carbine load/twist rate discussions. My experience with 3 different .44 carbines ( a Win '94 and two tube feed Ruger semi's} is that the 1:38 twist in the older rifles does not yield the best accuracy. Some shooters report better results, but the 3 I've worked with all prefer lighter bullets, ie, under 240 gr. The 180's are fragile at carbine velocities for deer and I've settled on 200 gr XTP's. I still rarely get more than 3-4 MOA with the lighter slugs, and 240's and up rarely stay on a 9" pie plate at 100 yds.

All that said, in the right settings, a .44 carbine makes a dandy close range deer rig.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by bamaranger

I generally always jump in on these .44 carbine load/twist rate discussions. My experience with 3 different .44 carbines ( a Win '94 and two tube feed Ruger semi's} is that the 1:38 twist in the older rifles does not yield the best accuracy. Some shooters report better results, but the 3 I've worked with all prefer lighter bullets, ie, under 240 gr. The 180's are fragile at carbine velocities for deer and I've settled on 200 gr XTP's. I still rarely get more than 3-4 MOA with the lighter slugs, and 240's and up rarely stay on a 9" pie plate at 100 yds.

All that said, in the right settings, a .44 carbine makes a dandy close range deer rig.

My rifle is a newer one with the 1:20 twist. So it should theoretical stabilize the heavier stuff. Actually over stabilize if i ran the numbers right.

I have tried and like the 240xtp bullets. I have done some testing with the barnes 200g bullets. Im leaning towards home cast as they are a lot more budget friendly. But wanted to play with some of the fancy solid copper bullets.

Im just worried the all copper bullets, being under sized by 0.001 to .002 wont perform well since they are unable to obturate to fill the bore.

[Unclenick]

They may not be upset enough to fully obturate¹ the bore, but it won't be zero. Consider that your bullet's peak acceleration is something on the order of over 100,000 g's, and you can see how that might squash the bottom end of it enough to expand it elastically a thousandth or two.


¹ I don't know why, over time, the shooting world has come to refer to bullets as obturating (they are actually upset, making them fatter). When you look up the word "obturate" in the dictionary, you find it means to seal off something, as when a plug obturates a pipe. So the bullet upsets, which allows it to obturate the bore. But everyplace one looks among shooters speaking of bullet upset, they use the misappropriated term, obturate. An exception is the SAAMI glossary, which defines obturation as:

"The momentary expansion of a cartridge case against chamber walls which minimizes the rearward flow of gases between the case and the chamber wall when the cartridge is fired."

That's an appropriate usage, as the case is sealing off the chamber in that example. But I don't recall people discussing reloading using it in quite that way

[ciwsguy]

Shadow9, I mis-spoke. I meant 2” at 50 yards. That’s the best I could get out of my 1:38 Remlin with 240 grain, 0.431 polymer coated lead bullets over IMR 4227 powder. The powder load was very specific as even a difference of 1/4 grain of powder from that sweet spot opened the groups. I gave up trying to get anything different. Loading softer lead just leaded up the barrel that I tired of scrubbing it out. Results with H110 or W296 powder was t any different than the IMR 4227.

[Mannlicher]

My 1:38 twist 1894 Marlin really likes .429 bullets. With the Speer 270 GDSP and H110 powder, I get cloverleaf patterns at 50 yards, and 1.5 inch groups at 100 yards. Velocity is just over 1600 fps.

[ammo.crafter]

Cast lead bullets may be able to stabilize the bullets better then jacketed bullets.

Depending on velocity of your load the BHN will be critical to the bullet's interaction with the rifling.

[ciwsguy]

Just bought a couple hundred of these as they came back in stock. They are jacketed 0.431 bullets and should fit the bore well. Just loaded up some to try in my 1894.

[ChimpMunk20]

The 240 grain soft points will work perfectly. You do not need anything heavier.

[rodfac]

I've had great luck with Lyman's 429215GC & 429244GC, cast from air cooled wheel weights with 2% tin added for mold fill out. I size these to 0.432" for my son's Marlin 1894 and my own Marlin 336. Scoped with a 2.5x glass, these two will consistently give me 2" +/- groups at 100 yds with good, imperfection free, bullets. I use Hornady gas checks which I anneal to dead soft condition.

Both guns do equally well with Hornady's 240 or 200 gr XTPs. My powders of choice are Winchester 296 and Accurate #9 in mid to upper level charges. Velocities from my 20" Marlin 336' barrel are well over 1600 fps...this is a formidable deer load out to 125 yds and has worked well for both my son and I.

As a reminder, these are MY LOADS, worked up in my guns. If interested, first consult a GOOD manual and consider all of the pressure implications.

Lastly, that Lyman 429215GC bullet, sized to 0.430" is my go-to for both .44 Special and .44 Magnum handguns when I'm looking for ~1000-1200 fps loads. It has put down several horses here on our KY farm and will give complete pass through shots on deer hit behind the shoulder...429244GC is as good but has heavier recoil in revolvers and is not as economical to use due to its greater weight.

Best Regards, Rod

[Unclenick]

Rodfac,

Are you annealing the gas checks to reduce the seating force you have to apply to the bullet to engage the checks? Have you found a measurable accuracy or fouling advantage to doing this? Just curious.

[buck460XVR]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

I would be happy with 2in at 100yds.

....as would any of us that shoots .44 carbine. I can get close to that with my 77/44 and 240 gr Noslers JHP/JSPs, but no better. As for what bullet, I would stick with what shoots the best(it's the Noslers for me), while performing well terminally. As for "fancy" copper or other bullets, for most anything a .44 carbine is good for, any good quality for caliber weight jacketed or cast is all you need.

[44 AMP]

As for "fancy" copper or other bullets, for most anything a .44 carbine is good for, any good quality for caliber weight jacketed or cast is all you need.

Unless you live in / wish to hunt in one of the states that has (or will) outlaw lead for hunting.

Being aware of the hazards of lead is a good thing. Our current "lead-phobia" is not.

Don't know if they still do, or not (not being likely) but regarding hazardous materials, they used to teach us a quote, from "the Renaissance alchemist Paracelsus" about how everything was poison, what varied was the dosage.

Lack of understanding that, being applied in the real, not the theoretical, world is the root cause of many of our problems today.

If some is bad, then less must be good, and none is the best. And its opposite, if some is good, then more must be better are both being applied to about everything in our lives, and neither is entirely accurate.

Nor intelligent, when applied with a "zero tolerance" approach.

DOSAGE (exposure) is the key, and the single most important factor in determining harm or benefit.

EVERYTHING in our world is "poison" if you get too much, and a great many things are harmful to us ("poison") if you don't get enough. People who don't think this through often try to rebut the idea using something common in our lives that isn't (normally) "poison" as their example.

Many choose water, and say "water isn't poison!" To which I reply, "well what are your odds if I drop you in the middle of the North Atlantic (in April)??

DOSE (Amount makes all the difference) AND the harmful amount is VERY specific to the material. A few milligrams of lead in one chemical form can cause illness, injury, death (lead poisoning)

Many, Many, Many times that amount in a different chemical form doesn't. I've known people who lived half a century + with a lead bullet in their body, very close to vital organs. After they survived he "injection" (getting shot) the lead bullet did no further harm.

Back to bullets for a .44 rifle, the "right" one is one that fits your rifle bore and gives good accuracy, and isn't too long or too short to fit and feed through the magazine and action.

Personally I stay away from the really heavy slugs, 240-250gr had always done everything I asked, and expected them to. for me, 300gr and + is just an unneeded complication, assuming I can get them to work at all in the first place.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Unless you live in / wish to hunt in one of the states that has (or will) outlaw lead for hunting.

Being aware of the hazards of lead is a good thing. Our current "lead-phobia" is not.

Don't know if they still do, or not (not being likely) but regarding hazardous materials, they used to teach us a quote, from "the Renaissance alchemist Paracelsus" about how everything was poison, what varied was the dosage.

Lack of understanding that, being applied in the real, not the theoretical, world is the root cause of many of our problems today.

If some is bad, then less must be good, and none is the best. And its opposite, if some is good, then more must be better are both being applied to about everything in our lives, and neither is entirely accurate.

Nor intelligent, when applied with a "zero tolerance" approach.

DOSAGE (exposure) is the key, and the single most important factor in determining harm or benefit.

EVERYTHING in our world is "poison" if you get too much, and a great many things are harmful to us ("poison") if you don't get enough. People who don't think this through often try to rebut the idea using something common in our lives that isn't (normally) "poison" as their example.

Many choose water, and say "water isn't poison!" To which I reply, "well what are your odds if I drop you in the middle of the North Atlantic (in April)??

DOSE (Amount makes all the difference) AND the harmful amount is VERY specific to the material. A few milligrams of lead in one chemical form can cause illness, injury, death (lead poisoning)

Many, Many, Many times that amount in a different chemical form doesn't. I've known people who lived half a century + with a lead bullet in their body, very close to vital organs. After they survived he "injection" (getting shot) the lead bullet did no further harm.

Back to bullets for a .44 rifle, the "right" one is one that fits your rifle bore and gives good accuracy, and isn't too long or too short to fit and feed through the magazine and action.

Personally I stay away from the really heavy slugs, 240-250gr had always done everything I asked, and expected them to. for me, 300gr and + is just an unneeded complication, assuming I can get them to work at all in the first place.

I'm not avoiding lead. From what I have seen most lead will oxidize and create a shell around itself so to speak and render itself mostly safe. Such as will civil war musket and minie balls that are dug up covered in white oxide.

Mostly I just think solid copper bullets are cool and allow for some designs and methods that are not possible with lead. Such as the barnes with the giant cavities allowed by the thin but strong metal. The Lehighs that can cause cavitation without expansion. On top of all that most of these projectiles are almost unaffected by high to very high velocities.

Lead has gotten the job done for a long time. jacketed bullets can be great as well. I just really like what is able to be done with solid copper.