What Powder Federal Uses in Top Gun Shells?

smoking357 · January 20, 2018, 09:39 PM

Any guess what powder Federal uses in their Top Gun shells?

hdwhit · January 20, 2018, 11:52 PM

No. And unless they're willing to tell you, there's probably no way to find out. And even if they told you what they use, there's not guarantee that it is a powder that is available to handloaders.

**Mike Irwin** · January 21, 2018, 11:35 AM

It's pretty much guaranteed that the powder isn't available to handloaders.

The powders you and I can buy are canister powders. They're developed by blending multiple production lots of the same powder to give the same ballistic properties year after year after year.

The ammo companies don't have time or need to go through that process because they have the testing facilities they need to develop load information for individual lots of powder.

BigJimP · January 21, 2018, 12:41 PM

+1 ..^^^ ...on what they said.

As a reloader ...you may want to match the performance on a shell ...so all you have to do is look at the specs on the shell...if Federal gives it to you on the box or on their website.

ounces of shot ...( 7/8 oz, 1 oz, 1 1/8 oz...)

size of shot .... ( 7 1/2's ...8's ...etc )../ size of shot doesn't affect recipe -- its the ounces that matter...but you want to know what factory shells used so you can duplicate performance.

Gague & length of shell ( 12 ga etc / and 2 3/4", etc..)

Velocity ...( 1200 fps, etc....) ....

and say you pick a 12ga, 2 3/4" Federal hull, 1 oz of 8's at 1200 fps ...just go into your powder company loading tables..( like Hodgdon )....and you'll find a variety of powders that will give you that performance parameter.

Jim Watson · January 21, 2018, 01:15 PM

Back when Hercules made powder, they produced nine grades of Red Dot alone. Retail was Red Dot 30. The others went to OEM. I don't know if Alliant still does.

T. O'Heir · January 21, 2018, 02:13 PM

"...the powder isn't available to hand loaders..." And that's just one reason the manufacturers do not publish what components or how much powder they use. They're loading to get a specific pressure and a specific velocity. How they get it can change from one powder lot to another.

**Unclenick** · January 21, 2018, 04:29 PM

Someone here or on another board reported having pulled down the same Remington Core-lokt ammunition for his hunting rifle over several decades and had seen stick, flake, and ball powders at different times, but the cartridge specification stayed the same. The bulk powders most manufacturers use have greater lot-to-lot burn rate variation than the canister grade powders, as already explained by Mike Irwin. They then use a pressure gun and chronograph to get the charge weight for a new lot of the powder for a particular cartridge and bullet combination. If the new lot doesn't meet their velocity requirement within the SAAMI pressure limit, they move to the next powder they have in stock and try that.

The only exception I know of to the above is Federal's IMR 4064, which is apparently special ordered by them. I read in a past ATK presentation includes the addition of flash suppressant for the Mk.316 Mod.0 sniper ammunition they make for the military. I also note their Gold Medal Match ammunition has used the same 43.5-grain charge under a 168-grain MatchKing for the .308 Winchester for decades, suggesting they get it blended to even tighter burn rate control than canister grade powder has. I suspect this is because they don't want the bulk of the finished load to differ, as the slightly compressed load they have established tends to lock the powder in place so vibration from transport doesn't settle it.

Jim Watson · January 22, 2018, 12:00 PM

Early production 6.5 Creedmoor was loaded with H4350 and the load printed on the box so you could duplicate factory spec. I don't know if they still do.

When the 7mm '08 Remington was new on the market, a gunzine writer pulled a bullet and saw that the powder was a Ball type and at a charge weight consistent with W748. Reloads with the same amount of canister 748 and the same weight bullet (which was obviously a Hornady, not a Core Lokt) gave the same velocity.

So sometimes the factories DO use standard powders. Problem is, you have no way of knowing.

And it gets worse, herewith a couple of anecdotes confirming unclenick:

An AMU shooter wrote that when they got in a pallet of .223 Match ammo, they would pull a bullet to look at the powder. If it were Ball, they would use it for practice and rapid fire, if extruded, they would save it for slow fire because it would likely average more accurate. The spec did not call out a powder.

There was a gunzine article about the PD that went out for night firing with a new order of ammo, from the same source, same bullet and velocity spec. It had a dazzling muzzle flash, much worse than their old stock. They pulled a couple of bullets, and sure enough, different powders and they had not specified flash suppressant.

Moral of the story: It is not just that the factories use bulk powder that MAY differ from retail canister, they are going to change without notice depending on wholesale price and availability.

**Unclenick** · January 22, 2018, 05:25 PM

…And note that even for bulk powder, the distribution of burn rates will be a bell curve with the same average (center) value as the canister grade version. So there are lots of bulk that don't need to be adjusted to package as canister grade, but also others that need blending to get there. All sorts of stuff can happen out there.

Jim Watson · January 22, 2018, 07:15 PM

Yeah, they run off a lot - in WWII a production lot was a railroad car load, according to Phil Sharpe - and it just happens to be right on canister spec. They aren't going to throw it away if they don't have orders for 50000 jars.

I wonder how much tolerance there is in the manufacturing process and the specifications.
I have read all sorts of numbers about permissible lot to lot variation.

In my line of work, we were always trying to tighten up our process to hold closer to the nominal specification.

So, if you are buying powder for your ammo plant, are you going to order a slow lot of powder A or a spec lot of powder B? Do you care?

**Mike Irwin** · January 23, 2018, 08:50 AM

I'm not sure how much would fit into a railroad car, but during the later part of the war Du Pont was manufacturing 100,000 pound "lots" of smokeless powder...

And was manufacturing multiple lots a week.

At the speed that ammunition was being manufactured, one of the major arsenals could blow through a lot in a day, depending on what they were loading.

Jim Watson · January 23, 2018, 05:53 PM

Sharpe said the then carload was 40,000 or 50,000 lbs.
He also said that the powder mill was running at the same conditions and producing the same powder for considerably longer, but they broke it down by the carload because you could not count on getting consecutive carloads delivered to your ammo plant. You might get several the same, you might get one before and one after a plant turnaround and so a little different in "burning rate."

They were not fooling around in those days.
The Willow Run aircraft plant, operated by Ford with automotive industry methods, turned out 23 B24s a day at its peak in 1944. Sure, modern electronified jets are more complicated, but we never made 23 B2s at all.

**Mike Irwin** · January 24, 2018, 07:13 AM

"The Willow Run aircraft plant, operated by Ford with automotive industry methods, turned out 23 B24s a day at its peak in 1944. Sure, modern electronified jets are more complicated, but we never made 23 B2s at all."

I've got an absolutely fascinating book that details what went into Ford's B-24 efforts, the personalities, how screwed up the Ford family was, and how Henry Ford's paranoia turned Ford into a police state.

**Unclenick** · January 25, 2018, 02:28 PM

I took the .30-06 National Match ammunition historical data I have, which includes charge weights of IMR4895 and 78-foot velocities for 1957 through 1966. Working backward to get velocity matches in QuickLOAD, I found the burn rate of the bulk grade 4895 they used over those years had varied 14.75%, with a standard deviation of about 6%. The sample is small enough that the standard deviation could be off a bit, but if we assume it is about right, the expectation is that 60% of the bulk grade powder lots would fall within the 5% canister grade limits without adjustment. If Hodgdon held IMR powders to ±3%, as it does with its Australian powders, then about 40% of the bulk production lots would fall within that range.

This is just to give you some idea of how likely it is for a lot to escape the need for adjustment.

Jim Watson · January 27, 2018, 10:52 PM

Forty to sixty percent of bulk powder within canister spec, eh?
That sure puts the Factory Load Special Sauce Powder Legend in perspective, something I have been hoping to see for some time.

Of course that is if there is a canister grade at all.
The only source of 4895 for a good many years was Hodgdon and DCM surplus sales, until DuPont caught on to the demand. Likewise 4831.
I have read that IMR 7828 was 7mm Magnum factory powder for a good while before they would sell it at retail.

January 20, 2018, 09:39 PM	#1
smoking357 Member Join Date: November 27, 2012 Posts: 33	What Powder Federal Uses in Top Gun Shells? Any guess what powder Federal uses in their Top Gun shells?

January 21, 2018, 11:35 AM	#3
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	It's pretty much guaranteed that the powder isn't available to handloaders. The powders you and I can buy are canister powders. They're developed by blending multiple production lots of the same powder to give the same ballistic properties year after year after year. The ammo companies don't have time or need to go through that process because they have the testing facilities they need to develop load information for individual lots of powder. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 21, 2018, 02:13 PM	#6
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...the powder isn't available to hand loaders..." And that's just one reason the manufacturers do not publish what components or how much powder they use. They're loading to get a specific pressure and a specific velocity. How they get it can change from one powder lot to another. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 21, 2018, 04:29 PM	#7
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	Someone here or on another board reported having pulled down the same Remington Core-lokt ammunition for his hunting rifle over several decades and had seen stick, flake, and ball powders at different times, but the cartridge specification stayed the same. The bulk powders most manufacturers use have greater lot-to-lot burn rate variation than the canister grade powders, as already explained by Mike Irwin. They then use a pressure gun and chronograph to get the charge weight for a new lot of the powder for a particular cartridge and bullet combination. If the new lot doesn't meet their velocity requirement within the SAAMI pressure limit, they move to the next powder they have in stock and try that. The only exception I know of to the above is Federal's IMR 4064, which is apparently special ordered by them. I read in a past ATK presentation includes the addition of flash suppressant for the Mk.316 Mod.0 sniper ammunition they make for the military. I also note their Gold Medal Match ammunition has used the same 43.5-grain charge under a 168-grain MatchKing for the .308 Winchester for decades, suggesting they get it blended to even tighter burn rate control than canister grade powder has. I suspect this is because they don't want the bulk of the finished load to differ, as the slightly compressed load they have established tends to lock the powder in place so vibration from transport doesn't settle it. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 22, 2018, 05:25 PM	#9
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	…And note that even for bulk powder, the distribution of burn rates will be a bell curve with the same average (center) value as the canister grade version. So there are lots of bulk that don't need to be adjusted to package as canister grade, but also others that need blending to get there. All sorts of stuff can happen out there. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 20, 2018, 11:52 PM	#2
hdwhit Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2017 Posts: 1,011	No. And unless they're willing to tell you, there's probably no way to find out. And even if they told you what they use, there's not guarantee that it is a powder that is available to handloaders.

January 21, 2018, 12:41 PM	#4
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	+1 ..^^^ ...on what they said. As a reloader ...you may want to match the performance on a shell ...so all you have to do is look at the specs on the shell...if Federal gives it to you on the box or on their website. ounces of shot ...( 7/8 oz, 1 oz, 1 1/8 oz...) size of shot .... ( 7 1/2's ...8's ...etc )../ size of shot doesn't affect recipe -- its the ounces that matter...but you want to know what factory shells used so you can duplicate performance. Gague & length of shell ( 12 ga etc / and 2 3/4", etc..) Velocity ...( 1200 fps, etc....) .... and say you pick a 12ga, 2 3/4" Federal hull, 1 oz of 8's at 1200 fps ...just go into your powder company loading tables..( like Hodgdon )....and you'll find a variety of powders that will give you that performance parameter.

January 21, 2018, 01:15 PM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Back when Hercules made powder, they produced nine grades of Red Dot alone. Retail was Red Dot 30. The others went to OEM. I don't know if Alliant still does.

January 22, 2018, 12:00 PM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Early production 6.5 Creedmoor was loaded with H4350 and the load printed on the box so you could duplicate factory spec. I don't know if they still do. When the 7mm '08 Remington was new on the market, a gunzine writer pulled a bullet and saw that the powder was a Ball type and at a charge weight consistent with W748. Reloads with the same amount of canister 748 and the same weight bullet (which was obviously a Hornady, not a Core Lokt) gave the same velocity. So sometimes the factories DO use standard powders. Problem is, you have no way of knowing. And it gets worse, herewith a couple of anecdotes confirming unclenick: An AMU shooter wrote that when they got in a pallet of .223 Match ammo, they would pull a bullet to look at the powder. If it were Ball, they would use it for practice and rapid fire, if extruded, they would save it for slow fire because it would likely average more accurate. The spec did not call out a powder. There was a gunzine article about the PD that went out for night firing with a new order of ammo, from the same source, same bullet and velocity spec. It had a dazzling muzzle flash, much worse than their old stock. They pulled a couple of bullets, and sure enough, different powders and they had not specified flash suppressant. Moral of the story: It is not just that the factories use bulk powder that MAY differ from retail canister, they are going to change without notice depending on wholesale price and availability.

January 22, 2018, 07:15 PM	#10
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Yeah, they run off a lot - in WWII a production lot was a railroad car load, according to Phil Sharpe - and it just happens to be right on canister spec. They aren't going to throw it away if they don't have orders for 50000 jars. I wonder how much tolerance there is in the manufacturing process and the specifications. I have read all sorts of numbers about permissible lot to lot variation. In my line of work, we were always trying to tighten up our process to hold closer to the nominal specification. So, if you are buying powder for your ammo plant, are you going to order a slow lot of powder A or a spec lot of powder B? Do you care?

January 23, 2018, 08:50 AM	#11
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I'm not sure how much would fit into a railroad car, but during the later part of the war Du Pont was manufacturing 100,000 pound "lots" of smokeless powder... And was manufacturing multiple lots a week. At the speed that ammunition was being manufactured, one of the major arsenals could blow through a lot in a day, depending on what they were loading. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 23, 2018, 05:53 PM	#12
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Sharpe said the then carload was 40,000 or 50,000 lbs. He also said that the powder mill was running at the same conditions and producing the same powder for considerably longer, but they broke it down by the carload because you could not count on getting consecutive carloads delivered to your ammo plant. You might get several the same, you might get one before and one after a plant turnaround and so a little different in "burning rate." They were not fooling around in those days. The Willow Run aircraft plant, operated by Ford with automotive industry methods, turned out 23 B24s a day at its peak in 1944. Sure, modern electronified jets are more complicated, but we never made 23 B2s at all.

January 24, 2018, 07:13 AM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	"The Willow Run aircraft plant, operated by Ford with automotive industry methods, turned out 23 B24s a day at its peak in 1944. Sure, modern electronified jets are more complicated, but we never made 23 B2s at all." I've got an absolutely fascinating book that details what went into Ford's B-24 efforts, the personalities, how screwed up the Ford family was, and how Henry Ford's paranoia turned Ford into a police state. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 25, 2018, 02:28 PM	#14
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,061	I took the .30-06 National Match ammunition historical data I have, which includes charge weights of IMR4895 and 78-foot velocities for 1957 through 1966. Working backward to get velocity matches in QuickLOAD, I found the burn rate of the bulk grade 4895 they used over those years had varied 14.75%, with a standard deviation of about 6%. The sample is small enough that the standard deviation could be off a bit, but if we assume it is about right, the expectation is that 60% of the bulk grade powder lots would fall within the 5% canister grade limits without adjustment. If Hodgdon held IMR powders to ±3%, as it does with its Australian powders, then about 40% of the bulk production lots would fall within that range. This is just to give you some idea of how likely it is for a lot to escape the need for adjustment. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

January 27, 2018, 10:52 PM	#15
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Forty to sixty percent of bulk powder within canister spec, eh? That sure puts the Factory Load Special Sauce Powder Legend in perspective, something I have been hoping to see for some time. Of course that is if there is a canister grade at all. The only source of 4895 for a good many years was Hodgdon and DCM surplus sales, until DuPont caught on to the demand. Likewise 4831. I have read that IMR 7828 was 7mm Magnum factory powder for a good while before they would sell it at retail.