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Old November 7, 2022, 10:50 PM   #51
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I'm a fan of hardball in alloy-framed guns, but have also carried the plastic-tipped "Critical" rounds.
After marksmanship, the most important concern is penetration, and you get that with hardball.
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Old December 1, 2022, 08:08 AM   #52
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York....

There have been some comments made regards Yorks Medal of Honor action which I feel very strongly need clarification. There have been comments made early in this post stating the York story is "legend" and "not all it appears" and that others in the story are "written out". There are also comments made regards details of the action that are incorrect. To any desiring details on that action, or a good read on York prior and after his military service, I suggest reading "Alvin York, ....a biography on the hero of the Argonne" written by Douglas V. MASTRIANO. published in 2014. I got my copy that same year when I visited the Alvin York state park in Pall Mall TN. That site is dedicated to York and his post war farm and nearby gravesite in the local cemetery.

I dispute the use of the word "legend" in referring to the York action. This seems to imply (to me anyhow) that in some manner York's actions are suspect or fabricated. At least one author has included the word "legend" in their title concerning York, and the New York Times has claimed him "legendary" in a review of another biography, but there are simply better words and phrasing available. Sasquatch and Robin Hood are legends. Alvin York and his combat record were real.

In repelling the bayonet attack, York probably did not kill 6 German soldiers with 7 shots. After enfilading the machine gun trench on the hillside, York descended from the slope and noted the advance of one Lt. ENDRISS (not a Sargent) and perhaps as many as 12 soldiers closing on him. York assumed a position adjacent a Pvt BARDSLEY and engaged this assault. BEARDSLEY also was armed with a .45 pistol, and with BOTH men firing, dropped 7 attackers, including ENDRISS mere feet away. The remaining German soldiers retreated back to their trench. It is possible that not all the bayonet men were even aware of York/Beardsley's position as they advanced. MASTRIANO states that he believes that between York and Beardsley, 24 .45 acp rounds were fired by the pair. Each GI likely reloaded their pistol at least once.

MASTIANO has conducted extensive battlefield archeology and forensic analysis of spent cases and artifacts from what he believes is the actual location of the fight. After reading and noting the totality of the archeologic finds and analysis, I'm inclined to believe him. The clincher is that GERMAN insignia and ID tags recovered match the units that YORK and his men captured that day. The clustered .45acp cases are from two different pistols. Thirty-six spent '06 cases are from the same P17 rifle, from a position enfilading a section of German MG positions were found nearby. The complete picture painted by the forensics is hard to deny.

Beardsley never sought recognition for his action with York. Two others Sgts. EARLY and CUTTING did and were medaled, but not with the MOH. Interestingly, CUTTING was not named Cutting at all, he had enlisted under a false name and his credibility is thus at least questionable. Most all of the rest of the unit were shot up pretty badly.

Final comments: I wanted YORK to be armed with a Springfield. Hollywood portrayed him that way, and I like the rifle. The "Rifleman" magazine carried a good article supporting the claim that he did, despite the fact his unit was issued Enfields. York's family claimed he used a Springfield or thought he did anyhow, because Alving did not like the peep sight on the Enfield and the blade and bead on the '03 was similar to rifles he used at home. If MASTIRANO is right, it was an ENFIELD.

Hollywood had York using a Luger for heaven's sake, I've read because they could not find a blank firing 1911. The entire "gobble gobble "scene and " shooting turkeys front to rear back home" I think is indeed so much hoopla. I've shot a lot of turkeys, and occasionally if more than one is present at the shot, they get a bit flustered. But turkeys see EVERYTHING and do not linger long when under fire. It was a good scene in the movies and went with Coopers hayseed character. York's war diary is coarse and hard to read and must be taken with a grain of salt I believe. I suspect he came under the influence of his publisher and editor.

I've been out of town and missed the start of this thread. More on Cooper and hardball later.
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Old December 1, 2022, 06:32 PM   #53
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There have been some comments made regards Yorks Medal of Honor action which I feel very strongly need clarification. There have been comments made early in this post stating the York story is "legend" and "not all it appears" and that others in the story are "written out". There are also comments made regards details of the action that are incorrect. To any desiring details on that action, or a good read on York prior and after his military service, I suggest reading "Alvin York, ....a biography on the hero of the Argonne" written by Douglas V. MASTRIANO. published in 2014. I got my copy that same year when I visited the Alvin York state park in Pall Mall TN. That site is dedicated to York and his post war farm and nearby gravesite in the local cemetery.

I dispute the use of the word "legend" in referring to the York action. This seems to imply (to me anyhow) that in some manner York's actions are suspect or fabricated. At least one author has included the word "legend" in their title concerning York, and the New York Times has claimed him "legendary" in a review of another biography, but there are simply better words and phrasing available. Sasquatch and Robin Hood are legends. Alvin York and his combat record were real.

In repelling the bayonet attack, York probably did not kill 6 German soldiers with 7 shots. After enfilading the machine gun trench on the hillside, York descended from the slope and noted the advance of one Lt. ENDRISS (not a Sargent) and perhaps as many as 12 soldiers closing on him. York assumed a position adjacent a Pvt BARDSLEY and engaged this assault. BEARDSLEY also was armed with a .45 pistol, and with BOTH men firing, dropped 7 attackers, including ENDRISS mere feet away. The remaining German soldiers retreated back to their trench. It is possible that not all the bayonet men were even aware of York/Beardsley's position as they advanced. MASTRIANO states that he believes that between York and Beardsley, 24 .45 acp rounds were fired by the pair. Each GI likely reloaded their pistol at least once.

MASTIANO has conducted extensive battlefield archeology and forensic analysis of spent cases and artifacts from what he believes is the actual location of the fight. After reading and noting the totality of the archeologic finds and analysis, I'm inclined to believe him. The clincher is that GERMAN insignia and ID tags recovered match the units that YORK and his men captured that day. The clustered .45acp cases are from two different pistols. Thirty-six spent '06 cases are from the same P17 rifle, from a position enfilading a section of German MG positions were found nearby. The complete picture painted by the forensics is hard to deny.

Beardsley never sought recognition for his action with York. Two others Sgts. EARLY and CUTTING did and were medaled, but not with the MOH. Interestingly, CUTTING was not named Cutting at all, he had enlisted under a false name and his credibility is thus at least questionable. Most all of the rest of the unit were shot up pretty badly.

Final comments: I wanted YORK to be armed with a Springfield. Hollywood portrayed him that way, and I like the rifle. The "Rifleman" magazine carried a good article supporting the claim that he did, despite the fact his unit was issued Enfields. York's family claimed he used a Springfield or thought he did anyhow, because Alving did not like the peep sight on the Enfield and the blade and bead on the '03 was similar to rifles he used at home. If MASTIRANO is right, it was an ENFIELD.

Hollywood had York using a Luger for heaven's sake, I've read because they could not find a blank firing 1911. The entire "gobble gobble "scene and " shooting turkeys front to rear back home" I think is indeed so much hoopla. I've shot a lot of turkeys, and occasionally if more than one is present at the shot, they get a bit flustered. But turkeys see EVERYTHING and do not linger long when under fire. It was a good scene in the movies and went with Coopers hayseed character. York's war diary is coarse and hard to read and must be taken with a grain of salt I believe. I suspect he came under the influence of his publisher and editor.

I've been out of town and missed the start of this thread. More on Cooper and hardball later.
Good post as usual Bama, I'd like to hear your take on Cooper and ball.
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Old December 2, 2022, 01:35 PM   #54
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Sasquatch and Robin Hood are legends. Alvin York and his combat record were real.
I agree. But real feats, told and retold (accurately and inaccurately) for generations until they become "institutional memory" turns the figures into "legends", and in that regard, Sgt York is absolutely "legendary".

Quote:
MASTIANO has conducted extensive battlefield archeology and forensic analysis of spent cases and artifacts from what he believes is the actual location of the fight. After reading and noting the totality of the archeologic finds and analysis, I'm inclined to believe him. The clincher is that GERMAN insignia and ID tags recovered match the units that YORK and his men captured that day. The clustered .45acp cases are from two different pistols. Thirty-six spent '06 cases are from the same P17 rifle, from a position enfilading a section of German MG positions were found nearby. The complete picture painted by the forensics is hard to deny.
There is no question the forensics of the brass seem compelling, but, is this the actual location, undisturbed and un-corrupted since the fight took place, or is this a case of somewhere in the right area, and the findings seem to support the story?
" what he believes is the actual location of the fight." This alone produces doubt. Unlike Little Big Horn, this is not a remote location in the badlands, essentially untrafficed and unspoiled since the fight. More than a few people were in that area, before, during and after the fight, and more in the century plus since, and there is no one alive today who can say "I was there, and this IS the place it happened".

As to this,
Quote:
If MASTIRANO is right, it was an ENFIELD.
I'd agree that the rifle York would have been issued would have been an Enfield. However, there are sources which claim that York got permission from his Battalion Commander to use a Springfield, and depending on who is telling the tale, either the Bn CO obtained a Springfield for him to use, or allowed York to trade his Enfield to another unit for a Springfield. There is, of course, no concrete proof at this late date, but either of those is well within the realms of possibility.

The Hollywood movie changed a lot of details, some to make a "better" story, and some, like the Luger, because of "technical issues". It's a movie, "based on real events", not a documentary....
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Old December 2, 2022, 02:31 PM   #55
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I have wondered just how Sgt York employed the 1903 sight, assuming he was able to get one. That is a complicated device with the "battle sight" showing when the "ladder" is down, and an aperture and two open notches when the "ladder" is up. Doctrine was to set the aperture at the desired range and aim with it even though farther away from the eye than best for the type. The USMC had their own sights with a thicker, undercut front blade and only an aperture in the "drift slide."
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Old December 2, 2022, 03:40 PM   #56
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locations and legends

The choice of words in referring to York is up to the writer. Legend is not one I choose, but others have. Purely me I suppose, but is seems a small step from legend to myth and from myth to tall tale. The inference in the OP was the event was not all that it was claimed (or words to that effect) and I am opposed to massaging history when there is enough evidence to support the original story. York's action was witnessed by many from both sides and much written material exists concerning same. MASTRIANO'S work puts much of it together in one package.

The location and evidence were compelling enough for the French authorities to allow the construction of the Sgt York Historical Trail. It is indeed a case of the evidence supporting the claim, but....... it is the TOTALITY of the evidence, the brass, the insignia, German ID tags and uniform minutia, MG belt material, spent and unspent cases both German and US, even a German officers whistle and the terrain which allows the conclusion to be reached. There have been other searches and claims to success, but MASTRIANO's efforts paint the best picture. To use the reference to Little Big Horn.......there is debate as to whether or not they actually recovered Custer's body, and not just some enlisted man, even though the location of the battle is well known and the effort was done only about a year later.

My point? Recreating history involves some speculation. I want to believe that they now have the York site correct and "Hero of the Argonne" connects enough dots for me to believe. All others suit themselves. I do encourage all interested to read the book.

Hollywood and Gary Cooper gave us the movie and it is entertaining and of course certainly not fact. I've enjoyed this discourse on York. Not long after visiting his gravesite in Pall Mall, I mentioned some to a certain educated and bright person of my acquaintance that I had done same. I was confounded when they did not know the Alvin York story. About to the same degree when a young man at the range asked what kind of rifle was my M-1 Garand!
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Old December 2, 2022, 05:14 PM   #57
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Some people manage their entire lives without learning much history, some of us find it a passion.

What concerns me more than someone not knowing about Sgt York is watching "cops" on TV (the real ones) and seeing a couple of young officers have to call their shift Sgt to get someone to the scene who knew how to unload a revolver!
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Old December 2, 2022, 07:24 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by bamaranger
I dispute the use of the word "legend" in referring to the York action. This seems to imply (to me anyhow) that in some manner York's actions are suspect or fabricated. At least one author has included the word "legend" in their title concerning York, and the New York Times has claimed him "legendary" in a review of another biography, but there are simply better words and phrasing available. Sasquatch and Robin Hood are legends. Alvin York and his combat record were real.
There's a difference between "legend" and "myth." York's accomplishments are legendary. Thor's accomplishments are mythical.
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Old December 2, 2022, 08:49 PM   #59
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Now back to your original broadcast.

Reading Jeff Cooper's columns and articles real time in the 1970s, I recall that he was not enamoured of "frangible" pistol bullets. That does not mean he stopped at hardball.
He shot a good bit of 200-215 gr SWCs with LOTS of Unique, and plugged the Adams bullet, kind of a hybrid RN-SWC.
He also liked the .45 version of the Hornady/USAF 9mm flat point FMJ.
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Old December 3, 2022, 12:03 AM   #60
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Regarding Sgt York, I really need to find the article that I read. I believe it was about a book that was written about the fight. Sgt York's role in the fight is not in dispute but rather there were other men who were equally involved and just as responsible for the outcome but didn't get credit. I take no position in the matter since I'm far from an authority on the subject.

Regarding Jeff Cooper I've been re-reading my books by him. I think it's important to note that Cooper's thoughts and experiences reflect the knowledge that was available at the time and he had no knowledge about anything that came after him. He was very progressive and helped move firearms and tactics in the right direction and during his time they were probably the best available. However, decades have passed since Cooper's time and in that time firearms, ammunition, and tactics have made significant strides forward thanks in no small part to twenty years of war.

I would be very interested to know what Cooper would think if he were alive today to see it. Would he change his opinion on 9mm with modern hollow points? How would he feel about weapon mounted lights, quality optics, or modern AR15's and AR10's, and many other subjects? We'll never know but I like to think that a forward thinking man like Cooper would have embraced some of the change.
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Old December 3, 2022, 03:51 PM   #61
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We'll never know but I like to think that a forward thinking man like Cooper would have embraced some of the change.
Remember, Col Cooper was a big fan of the 10mm and helped design the Bren ten pistol. He didnt think the 1911 was the end all, be all. Just the most user friendly avail at the time.
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Old December 3, 2022, 08:33 PM   #62
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He didnt think the 1911 was the end all, be all. Just the most user friendly avail at the time.
On numerous occasions Cooper said the 1911A1 was the best blend of power, controllability, size, weight, and ergonomics available.


i think he was right, then. And not far off the mark even today....
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Old December 3, 2022, 08:45 PM   #63
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I think Cooper's idea of 10mm was about 10mm FBI or a top .40 SW.
He said the 10mm Norma did not show an advantage until 75 yards but would be good in a Carbine.
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Old December 4, 2022, 05:22 AM   #64
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Cooper was also a proponent of and taught the Weaver Stance.

I still employ the weaver cause it's what I learned on.
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Old December 4, 2022, 05:49 AM   #65
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Sgt York and Jeff Cooper

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Originally Posted by bamaranger View Post
Hollywood and Gary Cooper gave us the movie and it is entertaining and of course certainly not fact. I've enjoyed this discourse on York. Not long after visiting his gravesite in Pall Mall, I mentioned some to a certain educated and bright person of my acquaintance that I had done same. I was confounded when they did not know the Alvin York story. About to the same degree when a young man at the range asked what kind of rifle was my M-1 Garand!
Time passes and what was once common knowledge can change with that passage of time.

Alvin York’s exploits were legendary enough to warrant remembrance (I don’t see the use of the word legendary as a negative, nor did I get the impression the OP meant to call York’s actions into doubt). At the same time, over 100 years has passed since those actions. In that time the US fought another World War, wars in Korea and Vietnam, shorter conflicts, and wars in the Middle East (including a 20 year war that only ended recently). In that time a number of Medals of Honor for actions that to many might defy belief have been awarded. York is in the company of heroes. I don’t think it’s entirely unexpected that some people will never have heard of Alvin York, as he wasn’t a part of their generation’s era or even their parents for that matter (the same is true of the M1 Garand). It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t make an effort to keep that memory alive.
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Old December 4, 2022, 11:16 AM   #66
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I only have Colt Commander as carry piece. Loaded with 230 Ball. Never had a hang up or hic-up. The miracle bullets they are peddling today are 90% sales hype. They have a special bullet for everything now. Hollow points with serrated edges? I guess they hurt more. Same with hunting ammo for rifles. It’s twice the price for half the ammo.
Do you know the story behind Bass Masters & Ray Scott? Basically he built a market for sales. Cooper was similar with a touch of secret agent stuff, implied but never documented.
I always put more stock in guys like Jordan and even Elmer.
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Old December 4, 2022, 02:06 PM   #67
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Jim, I'd be willing to bet that Alvin York liked the Springfield because the battle sight, the v on the rear sight when it's folded down, was like the Rifles he grew up with.
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Old December 4, 2022, 02:49 PM   #68
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Remember the era, VERY FEW common US hunting rifles had peep sights. They existed, but very few folks had them, especially poorer folks. Everything had a V or U notch leaf rear, at the economy level, so that's what we learned to use.

even decades later, peep sights weren't common on most hunting rifles. Most of the people who did have one learned to use it from military service. Target and match shooters used them a lot, but farmers and once a year deer hunters rarely did.
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Old December 4, 2022, 04:02 PM   #69
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Yup.

It's very easy to understand why typical open sights can be very accurate. You can see that the rear notch is tiny and the front sight doesn't have much room to move around in it. You can also easily see when it's perfectly centered and lined up for elevation.

It can be sort of counterintuitive that peep sights are also very accurate because it seems like there's so much room for the front sight to move around in the aperture when you're looking through it. Also, it seems like there's no way to really verify that the front sight is properly centered.

When I started shooting aperture sights, it was hard for me to get my head around the whole idea of them and how they worked. But after I shot them for awhile it was easy to see that they did work and then I got to really like them.
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Old December 4, 2022, 04:27 PM   #70
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The 03 battle sight is said to be calibrated for 547 yards (500 metres, I didn't know the Army was on the French System in 1907.)
But that means it will hit a standing man SOMEWHERE. I don't know the actual zero.
Hard to think a noted marksman like York would be content with that.
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Old December 4, 2022, 04:39 PM   #71
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I was told 400yds, by 2 old time, pre WW2 shooters.
No matter, peep sights weren't common. York mostly learned to shoot using old time muzzle loading Rifles.
If he used a 1903, I like to think he was more comfortable with it.
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Old December 4, 2022, 04:54 PM   #72
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Hard to think a noted marksman like York would be content with that.
By all accounts he wasn't content with the peep sight, and I would think a noted marksman like York fully understood the difference between what the rifle in his hands would actually do and what the sight markings were good for.

I doubt there's any record but I'm confident that York sighted in his rifle before going into combat with it. We all shoot a little differently, and its a good thing to know if you need to set the sight of your rifle, ON the mark or just off it in order to hit at range.
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Old December 4, 2022, 05:59 PM   #73
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Yup.

It's very easy to understand why typical open sights can be very accurate. You can see that the rear notch is tiny and the front sight doesn't have much room to move around in it. You can also easily see when it's perfectly centered and lined up for elevation.

It can be sort of counterintuitive that peep sights are also very accurate because it seems like there's so much room for the front sight to move around in the aperture when you're looking through it. Also, it seems like there's no way to really verify that the front sight is properly centered.

When I started shooting aperture sights, it was hard for me to get my head around the whole idea of them and how they worked. But after I shot them for awhile it was easy to see that they did work and then I got to really like them.
Good point and York probably felt the same.

Cooper was also an adamant proponent of the "ghost ring" big aperture rear peep sight. I felt the same as you when I first was taught to use a peep. No question, when compared to tangent iron sights, it is faster to get on target, especially for older eyes.
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Old December 4, 2022, 07:53 PM   #74
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I doubt there's any record but I'm confident that York sighted in his rifle before going into combat with it.
If as some accounts have it, he was issued a 1917 and had to scrounge a 1903, it would have been under field conditions. The wind gauge adjustment would not be a problem but the battle sight is not adjustable for elevation. I guess a Tennessee boy would have been accustomed to taking a fine bead to coarse bead to handle that.

Interestingly enough, the original 1903 Springfield had an open sight with tangent curve elevation adjustment, akin to some Mausers. York would probably have liked that. That went away along with Teddy Roosevelt's rejection of the ramrod bayonet, in favor of the 1905 knife bayonet and ladder sight. The sight calibration had to be redone ca 1907 as the '06 spitzer ammunition came into use.
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Old December 4, 2022, 09:42 PM   #75
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Cooper's last .45 acp bullet?

The last bullet Cooper endorsed may well have been a concoction cooked up by him and custom gun plumber name of Lauck. A outfit called D&L bullets carries this projectile, a 200 gr sharp shouldered, RN. Jim Watson referred to this type of design in an earlier post, calling it the "Adams Bullet" I believe. If one searches "D&L bullets, Cooper .45 acp bullet", you should encounter their web page with pics and a good write-up. I think Hornady had introduced and discontinued their 230 gr truncated FP before the D&L became a commercial reality.

We might all still be shooting one handed if Cooper and his associates had not promoted the "modern technique". His color coded levels of awareness are still taught widely. Like it or lump it, the scout rifle still survives as well.
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