The most simple muzzleloader, will it work?

[Monday]

Hello, i have made a design of a very simple firearm. It's basically a matchlock ignited muzzleloader, but for modern use i would use a (storm)lighter instead.

This is how it looks: http://imgur.com/a/Ept8q

The whole idea of the design is to skip the touch hole, and ignite the gun by the bore instead. In that way it could use cartridges, and you don't have to reload the pan between each shot. Just put a cartridge in, shoot, put it out and put in a new. Fast and simple.

What will the advantage of the gun be?
1. Improve fire speed
2. Less dirt if you use black powder, since the cartridge will protect the main bore of the gun. No small touch hole to clean.
3. Stealth, no one will understand that it's actually a gun that can fire, since it has no mechanism or touch hole at all.
4. Very easy to make, you basically just need a pipe with a bottom at one end, which is strong enough to handle the pressure of your load. You will also need cartridges that fit snugly into that pipe/bore. (Bore-ignition could be used without cartridges to)

What will the disadvantage of the gun be?

This is what came to my mind:
1. The ball have to be under dimensioned (enough for the fuse to pass by)
2. The fuse will delay the shot, with a very fast burning fuse and a short barrel it should not be a big issue.
3. The fire of the fuse may die inside the cartridge/bore, especielly between the little space between bullet and cartridge. How likely is that? How tight does ordinary touch holes use to be?

Give me your thoughts about this project.

[TXAZ]

Getting the cartridge out might be a pain particularly with any residue in the bore.

A bore hole design seems more reliable. But hey, give it a try that's where innovation comes from.

[Hawg]

With a loose fitting ball you're not going to have much velocity.

[BillM]

You might want to check legality. Appears that you are making a smoothbore
cartridge firearm. Even if it loads from the muzzle, using a cartridge and not having
rifling it could fall under the ATF's definition of a shotgun----not a good thing.

That said----your sketch looks like a gun. No stealth there. Might be a fun concept to play with--there have been stranger ideas.

[Pahoo]

will it work?

Well, it might work but not work out. We have read a variety of posts in this forum and even if I don't agree, I never argue the point until it get into safety issues and this one raises some RED flags for me. In most Midwest states, an M/L is considered unloaded when there is now ignition component, in place. I do give you credit for imagination and wish you well. ......

Be Safe !!!

[B.L.E.]

Looks like you re-invented the mortar shell launcher used if fireworks displays.

[Model12Win]

THIS is the most simple muzzleloader:



It's called handgonne and was used in the medeival times. It is a short smoothbore barrel with a hole drilled in the top where you stick a match or fuse in the powder behind the ball, all set atop a wood staff. Extremely simple. Effective enough to replace bows and arrows.

[4V50 Gary]

1) That it takes a fuse means slower lock time, not faster.
2) Cleaner. Probably.
3) People see a grip and a barrel, it's a gonne. Ask a cop if he would shoot someone if that was pointed at him.
4) Pipe? Well, how about some ordnance steel because I don't want pipes blowing up in my hands. Might as well go with slam-fire shotguns as were used in the Philippines during WW II.

How does one extract the cartridge when they're finished?

[B.L.E.]

How does one extract the cartridge when they're finished?

You could have a combustible cartridge like this old mountain howitzer round. No they didn't pour gunpowder down the bores of muzzle loading artillery. The powder charge was always premeasured in a bag and in this case, even fixed to the shell.



If you are wondering why the powder bag is smaller than the bore, it's because mountain howitzers had a smaller than bore powder chamber in the breech.

Here's a common pyrotechnic mortar round.

[James K]

Why?????

Jim

[bedbugbilly]

Pursue your dream/fantasy I guess . . . . just make sure if you decide to build this, you have the knowledge about pressures, steel, etc. . . . otherwise you are just creating a pipe bomb. Basically what you are doing is "re-inventing" a cartridge gun with a crude method of ignition and a very difficult way to remove your "cartridge"if I understand your concept correctly. If your "cartridge" extends the full length of the barrel - you are basically putting a barrel inside of a barrel. But it's your time and effort . . . even though some people consider it "crude" - I'll stick to flintlocks, percussion caps and cartridges - much less muss and fuss than your design IMHO . . .

[4V50 Gary]

I think the cartridge should extend beyond the barrel. It should be knurled too on the end for easy removal from the "pipe" barrel. That "cartridge" had better be strong enough to contain the boom.

[Monday]

I have done an update on this project, which will make it possible to ignite the gun through the rear instead of the muzzle.

This is how the prototype of the gun and cartridge looks like: http://imgur.com/download/VfvBhDS

Barrel and stock http://imgur.com/download/r7MgITt

It has to be a hole in the stock/grip that fairly fits the lighter, when the lighter have been put in place the space has to be filled, so that the hot gasses don't reach your hand when firing the gun - but escape through the "touch hole" /big hole at the top. I made that hole very big in my design, so that the gasses easily can escape and don't build up any pressure.

Update advantage:
1. Fires instantly
2. Fires more durable (no hassle with the fuse inside the barrel)
3. The ball don't have to be undersized

Update disadvantage
The only disadvantage i can think of is about the gasses from the touch hole, which will travel back at you since the touch hole is at the rear of the cartridge. That's why i though this design would be bad in the first place, but it should not be that hard to lead the gasses away as i show in my example/sketch. So the disadvantage should easily be overcomed.

The goal behind this project is to find a way to shoot a primitive gun/muzzleloader with fast reloading. The main issue with fast reloading ordinary muzzleloaders is that a spark could be left in the bore, which could make the powder charge go off while you're loading the gun. With cartridges that won't be an issue, and the reloading process can be made even faster to, with the use of cartridges.

Tell me if the design/sketches is unclear, and feel free to give me your thoughts about this update.

[Blindstitch]

Pretty sure the definition for muzzleloader by the DNR is a device loaded by the muzzle. That's why cap and ball revolver pistols cant be used for hunting purposes here in Wisconsin.

I'm seeing a lot of work and legality problems. Have you seen the design for the CVA Wolf Muzzleloaders. Can't get any simpler than that.

[B.L.E.]

Why not replace that fuse with a primer.

Muzzle loading never completely died, just about every modern mortar used by today's armies is a muzzle loader.

[4V50 Gary]

That flash guard should encase the cartridge lest you get a facefull of flame. Also consider if you shoot beneath the eye level. You don't want that ball of fire near your face. Won't that flash guard interfer with the operation called in the '60s as "flicking your bic?"

Last, how do you propose to keep the cartridge from jumping out of place?

Face it, just getting the lighter to light is a lot slower than a flintlock.

[James K]

Both the idea and the comments are interesting. What is proposed is a firearm at the most primitive level, c. 1350 AD. If the idea is simply to make something that will go bang, that object may have been achieved. But if the intent is to make something useful or better in some way than a modern gun (even of a primitive design), the result is a failure.

Jim

[Monday]

A year later..

I belive the best way to make a gun like this, is to use thin electric igniters/matches.
The gun could have multiple barrels, like a pepperbox, like this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9FQ3kyDaKu0
A individual igniter is put in each barrel, through the muzzle.

There is no need of any touch hole.

Connect these igniters through a trigger, which make them fire one by one by each trigger pull. I don’t know exactly how this will be achieved yet. But the gun will then fire as a semiauto, even though it’s of a very simplier design. The gun doesn’t got any moveing parts at all.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k03z_UEFDXg

For safety, the gun should also have a safety button. Like this https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SqSZ_cZzep0

So you press the safety button, and the gun is ready, first trigger pull boom, second trigger pull boom, third trigger pull boom, etc. untill all barrels are fired.

Electric igniters seem to be very reliable to, when made correct with the right materials.

Ofcourse a modern gun has it’s advantages, since this is a muzzleloader it will take time to load it, and it recuire multiple barrels. But the gun will never jam, it will eventually be more reliable than a modern glock, and it’s very simple and easy to make.

After loading the barrel, put some grease/wax to secure the load from moisture, and the load will be 100% secured. The gun could be fired even when it rains, and stored reliably even outside, unlike traditional muzzleloaders.

What do you think about this design? Do you see any problems with it? Do you have any solutions for the trigger system of the gun?

[HiBC]

My suggestion would be to actually go shooting with either a flintlock or a caplock.

With all due respect,I believe your perceived shortcomings and solutions might be rearranged a bit when you experience how well these firearms actually work in the world that exists outside the skull.

And you will have a lot of fun.

[Monday]

I have a caplock philadelphia derringer, it’s fun to shoot, that’s for sure, i prefer black powder over smokeless, because it’s so smooth.

But it’s fun to invent and build to, to shoot something that you actually build yourself is a special feeling. My only building yet is a double barrelled single shot .22, with open bolts.

Back in the days they didn’t had any electric igniters, but now when we do, i belive electric ignition may be superior against the old ignition methods.

This is such a simple gun that i don’t see that much that could go wrong with it, and it’s not that much work either, i reliable and simple gun is always fun to make and shoot. I got a roundbar 4340 steel, that i want to do something with..

But give me your thoughts and concerns for my design, and how it can be improved. According to the trigger system, i don’t really got any good solution myself..

[maillemaker]

So, the idea of an electrically fired muzzle loader has been done before, including commercially. Check out this guy's pages:

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...lectricml.html
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...eignition.html

Your idea of a fuze-lit muzzle loader with a touch hole is actually how the most ancient firearms were used. They were called "handgonnes" and were basically a small cannon on a stick. They could be touched off with a fuse, a slow match, or a hot wire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRKOoqJhCVE

Later, these evolved into firearms with actual lock/trigger mechanisms, with the most primitive being match locks, and then flint locks, etc.

Unless your "cartridge" extends beyond the muzzle of your "bore", you will never be able to extract it. The fouling in the bore will seal the cartridge in place.

Interestingly, the original Gatling used "cartridges" much like you are proposing. They were essentially single-bore revolver chambers, with a nipple for a percussion cap. However, these cartridges were inserted and extracted at the breech.

Your design has no provision for extracting or inserting the cartridge from the breech.

In addition, unless your "cartridge" is quite stiff/thick, it will fire-form to the "chamber" (bore) and again be stuck in there.

In fact, with your design you'd be better off making the "cartridge" basically a removable barrel, and the body of the gun (bore) being thin. Then the cartridge becomes a single-shot pistol and your "reloads" are just multiple pistols.

I would not want the touch hole pointing towards me, that's for sure. Better have a darn good blast deflector.

Steve

[maillemaker]

With your rear-hole design you might design the main body of the gun with a heating element "spike" in the bottom. So that when you put the cartridge into the bore, the spike passes through the touch hole into the powder. Then electrically the element heats to glowing.



Thus it would be a thermally-ignited electrical system. You'd have to come up with an ignitor that withstood multiple firings though.

Steve

[HiBC]

I suggest browsing the "Track of the Wolf" online catalogue.

I'm not sure which volume,but there was a series of "Firefox" books about crafts and skills of Appalachian mountain folks.There is a pretty good lesson on building a "Poor boy" mountain rifle.A gentleman named Herschel House builds the rifle.

I certainly agree,its satisfying to shoot something you build yourself.

I'm not telling you to abandon your ideas.

I'm suggesting that building a Siler Lock Kit is good experience. Layout,drill press,drilling,tapping,eyebal torch heat treating,filing,finishing.

I think they have barrels with pre-fitted breech plugs.

Another good book is Ned Roberts "The Muzzle Loading Cap Lock Rifle"

Have fun.

[Model12Win]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

With your rear-hole design you might design the main body of the gun with a heating element "spike" in the bottom. So that when you put the cartridge into the bore, the spike passes through the touch hole into the powder. Then electrically the element heats to glowing.



Thus it would be a thermally-ignited electrical system. You'd have to come up with an ignitor that withstood multiple firings though.

Steve

There are tungsten allows that should more than be able to withstand the black powder pressures.

[Monday]

Either the cartridge has to be strong enough to contain the pressure without any support of the barrel, this could be achieved even with a pretty thin cartridge with the right steel, depending on the load.

The other option is a thin brass casing that expand in the barrel but don’t weld in place.

I think a strong steel cartridge is the best option here.

Anyway, cartridges wont work with electrical matches without getting fiddly. The easiest and safest way to make the cartridge gun is a fast burning fuse through the muzzle, and a short barrel. There is quick fuses that burn 0.4 seconds per foot. With a short barrel pistol and such a fuse, the delay will be very short, but for a long barrel like a rifle or musket, fuse through the muzzle isnt a option.

So, a short barrel pistol, fast and short fuses, a storm lighter fixed to the pistol inline the fuse as a trigger/igniter, strong steel cases and the gun will perform fine, i think, easy to reload fast. If there is water resistant fuses, it would be even better.

With e-matches, the gun will take time to reload, like a ordinary muzzleloader without casings. What i try to achieve with e-matches isnt a gun that can be reloaded fast, but a gun that can be fired fast in succession, like a modern semiauto or double action revolver, or even a fullauto. This require multiple barrels, like a pepperbox, but since the gun doesn’t have to revolver, the main barrel doesn’t need to be cylindrical. The barrels can be placed in a handy way which will make the gun less clumsy with high barrel capacity.

(Like this, viewed from the front: https://imgur.com/iPF95zB)

I made some more fast ipad-sketches, just to show the simple basics of the gun
https://imgur.com/a/J144qaH

So, the single barrel cartridge gun and the multibarrel e-match gun, have different purposes, advantages and disadvantages. A mix between the both could also be made, imagine a .44 pepperbox with a 12 gauge in the middle, the .44 balls is fired with e-matches connected to a double action trigger, and the 12 gauge shot is fired through a fuse and can be reloaded through cartridges.