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Old July 14, 2017, 08:37 PM   #26
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Until a few years ago all 38 Super ammo was loaded in nickel cases to keep it separate from 38 ACP ammo loaded in brass cases. Supers were also labeled as +P on the box. Then I noticed Super ammo coming in brass cases. I fired some Winchester 130 grain FMJ over my Chroney and got 1080. Not much more than the old 38 ACP. I believe they gave in to lawyer fears of Supers being fired in an old 38 ACP gun.
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Old July 14, 2017, 08:42 PM   #27
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Until a few years ago all 38 Super ammo was loaded in nickel cases to keep it separate from 38 ACP ammo loaded in brass cases. Supers were also labeled as +P on the box. Then I noticed Super ammo coming in brass cases. I fired some Winchester 130 grain FMJ over my Chroney and got 1080. Not much more than the old 38 ACP. I believe they gave in to lawyer fears of Supers being fired in an old 38 ACP gun.
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Old July 15, 2017, 01:23 AM   #28
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. I fired some Winchester 130 grain FMJ over my Chroney and got 1080
This got me thinking, even with the availability of chronographs at reasonable cost today, are we not once again (or STILL?) basically at the mercy of what ammo makers SAY they are producing, vs. what we actually get??

I do agree that for generations (US produced, anyway) .38 SUPER used nickel cases, .38ACP came in brass cases. Might not have been any kind of industry "standard" but it was what everyone did, back then, anyway...

SO, out of curiosity, I went to the Midway site, to see what they had (and was looking for pictures of the rounds, which Midway often has..)

Found some interesting, and somewhat conflicting information.

Fiocchi lists their 130gr FMJ at 1180fps, and it comes in BRASS cases.

Rem-UMC is listed at 1215fps for 130gr FMJ, and while the picture shows a nickel case, the data section says the case is brass.

Winchester also listed at 1215fps for 130gr FMJ, and nickel cases.

The Fiocchi box says "38 SUPERAUTO"
Remington and Winchester boxes say "38 SUPER AUTO +P"

There is also the question about the accuracy of the 1920s and 30s claims of MV for both .38 ACP and Super rounds. Not about what is in print, that we can see, but about what was actually coming out of the muzzles back then.

Ammo and gun makers of the past have a long established ..."tendency to embellish" their claims. It was, after all, part of the culture of the era.

Add in the real world results we get today, differences in velocity (as much as 100fps between individual guns with the same barrel length, while not common, does happen), and differences in barrel lengths between test guns and "street" guns, and nearly any variation of velocity is possible.

I was impressed with the data section for the Buffalo Bore ammo (on Midway) they gave velocity of their ammo in 3 different actual guns (not test barrels), 2 were 5", one was shorter, 4.3".

124gr JHP, 1356fps, 1359fps, and 1329fps. Their ammo is brass cased.

No matter what the maker prints on the box, if you don't get 1200fps + with a 130gr from a 5" (1911A1) I wouldn't call the ammo "Super" anything.
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Old July 15, 2017, 01:35 AM   #29
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Table 2 at the link below has actual chronographed 38 Super data from a variety of manufacturers.

http://38super.net/Pages/Factory2.html

Other 38 Super chronographed data can be found at these links:

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...per-automatic/

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/...er-ammunition/
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Old July 15, 2017, 04:13 PM   #30
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I have a 1911 series 70 Gov model. It has a custom Bar Sto stainless barrel and micro sights. I've only fired one box of .38sup Win, IIRC, and they were extremely accurate. I never did chronograph them, however. I load up both .38acp loads and .38sup loads. The cast bullet acp rounds use a 140 grain home cast bullet at around 1040 fps. A super load with 115 grain JHP bullets gives some 1280 fps. I still need to experiment some more and see what kind of higher velocities I can find. The acp handload will work the slide and the cases just "roll" out of the ejection port and pile up at my feet. The super load flings them off a ways. I like the caliber and the 1911 and the super round can encroach into .357 territory whereas that would strain the .38spl and/or be damaging to the gun and possibly the shooter.
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Old July 15, 2017, 04:26 PM   #31
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Now the Super is weak knee down loaded to less than 1,100 FPS because of older guns in 38 ACP not made for high pressures.
There's PLENTY of .38Super ammo that meets or even exceeds the original quoted spec. The loads that don't make 1100fps are, by far, the exception rather than the rule.

The data in the first link provided by 74A95 lists 30-40 loads chronoed in a 5" Colt and only one of them (sold as a "Match load") measured under 1100fps. Most were over 1200 and about a quarter of them exceeded 1400fps.

Moving this thread to General Handguns.
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Old July 16, 2017, 03:05 AM   #32
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You're not the only one that should be seeking the answer to that question Prof. Young.

I was at Wally World a few weeks ago. Saw they had some WWB 38 Super ammo in stock and decided to buy a box. The woman at the gun counter was sure I was confused about what I wanted and did not want sell me the ammo. She was sure 38 Super ammo=38 Special ammo and did not even want to get it out of the case. After considerable effort on my part, she finally relented and put it on the counter, warning me that I could not return it if it was the wrong kind. I don't expect every Walmart employee to be an expert on everything, but that was a struggle. I'd bet that if I went in again to buy the same ammo from the same woman, the same struggle would ensue.

BTW, For better or worse, I've been a 38 Super shooter for a very long time, and have chronographed a bunch of the stuff. Always interested in these discussions/debates as to actual 38 Super ballistics.

For any that might be interested, a few recent chronograph results with factory ammo fired in a Colt 38 Super with factory 5" barrel: Armscor 125 grain ball=1130 FPS, Remington 130 grain ball=1251 FPS, Winchester 130 grain ball (newer flat point type)=1212 FPS, Winchester 130 grain ball (older RN type)=1163 FPS, SIG V-Crown 125 grain JHP=1267 FPS, Underwood 124 grain JHP=*1268 FPS (*ammo from a second shipment averaged 1296 FPS), GECO 124 grain ball=1346 FPS.
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Old July 16, 2017, 10:36 AM   #33
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If you have an interest in guns, and their proper feeding, this is be the best fifteen bucks you could spend.
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/car...=9781440242656
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Old July 16, 2017, 07:42 PM   #34
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According to Douglas G. Sheldons book, by 1931 ammo for the Super .38 Colt , was marked .38 Super Automatic Colt.
In April of 1930 Smith & Wesson countered with the .38/44 N frame revolver. Hot cartridge, 158gr bullet at 1150fps. They had some really neat metal piercing round for it too. This info from Mullins Magnum book.
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Old July 17, 2017, 08:12 AM   #35
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One's Super, and the other is Special...

The .38 Special was originally a blackpowder revolver cartridge developed in the late 1800s by Smith & Wesson.

The .38 Super was developed by Colt as an uploaded and more powerful version of John Browning's .38 ACP cartridge.

The .38 Super was developed originally in response to a call from US police agencies for more powerful handguns that would allow them to better take on criminals in the heavy-bodied cars at the time. Or so the story goes.

The S&W uploaded version of the .38 Special, the .38-44 Heavy Duty, was essentially developed for the same purpose.
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Old July 17, 2017, 09:41 PM   #36
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The first appearance of the .38 Special was in the S&W Military and Police Model 1899; while originally tested with black powder, I believe it was actually made for distribution only with smokeless.

Of interest is that some revolvers chambered for .38 Special and quite a few chambered for .38 S&W will accept and fire .38 Super cartridges, a much higher pressure, and potentially dangerous, load.

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Old July 17, 2017, 10:37 PM   #37
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The history and performance of both cartridges can be found on wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Special

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Super
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Old July 18, 2017, 07:15 AM   #38
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"The first appearance of the .38 Special was in the S&W Military and Police Model 1899; while originally tested with black powder, I believe it was actually made for distribution only with smokeless."

Sorry, Jim, but you're absolutely wrong in that.


The .38 Special was offered both in smokeless and black powder loadings until around World War I.

The 1901 UMC catalog (found on this page http://cartridgecollectors.org/ammunition-catalogs/UMC) shows on page 11 the .38 Special with a 158-gr. bullet and loaded with 21.5 grains of powder. We know this is black powder for two reasons:

1. The original load, as developed by S&W and UMC, called for 21.5 grains of black powder.

2. There is a separate section of the catalog, starting on page 23, listing UMC's Smokeless Powder ammunition. The .38 Special is NOT listed in this section as work was apparently continuing on developing smokeless loads for it.


The 1903 UMC price list shows both black powder AND smokeless powder loadings offered for sale.



By 1910 UMC had been purchased by Remington Arms.

The 1910 catalog (same page as above) is absolutely gorgeous, and shows on page 84 that the company was still offering .38 Special cartridges in both black powder and smokeless powder loadings.

Even more interesting is the information on page 86, which list's ".38 Colt's Special" cartridges (simply Colt's name in place of S&W's, otherwise the same cartridge), being offered in both black powder and smokeless.


Finally, we get to the other Special round... the .44 Special -- on page 90.

As with the .38 Special, S&W developed it as a black powder cartridge. It was the last cartridge so developed, and was released in 1907.

It was also offered in both black powder and smokeless loadings until around World War I.
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Old July 18, 2017, 07:46 AM   #39
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Well, this is interesting...

I just looked at the 1923 Remington Arms Catalog, and the .38 Special was STILL being offered in both black powder and smokeless powder loads.

That's later than I though...

I had originally though that black powder loadings had been discontinued for .38 Special right around World War I, but it's looking more like they were dropped closer to the Great Depression.

Yep, the 1929 Jobber's Wholesale Price catalog still shows a single black powder load for .38 Special....
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Old July 18, 2017, 07:51 AM   #40
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Holy crap...

1933 and Remington is STILL offering a black powder .38 Special load.

I'm gobsmacked.
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Old July 18, 2017, 03:35 PM   #41
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I reload the .38 spl with black powder and a (nominally)158 grain bullet. Modern cases are obviously made with thicker brass since it's a struggle to load even 21 grains, and still get a tiny amount of bullet creep. In .357 cases 21.5 grains of 3F black work just fine. I was truly amazed at the accuracy of these loads at 25 yards. A lot of smoke, concussion and fire; in other words, FUN.
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Old July 18, 2017, 08:45 PM   #42
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When the .38 Special was developed the balloon head case was still the normal case style. It had a greater capacity than the solid head cases that we now use.
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Old July 18, 2017, 09:48 PM   #43
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Mike, thanks for that info. I had the impression that the .38 Special had been smokeless from the beginning, but it appears that I was wrong.

Jim.
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Old July 19, 2017, 06:35 AM   #44
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Well, I finally made it up to the 1940 Remington Dealer's price list, and black powder loaded .38 Special cartridges (and .44 Special) have finally been discontinued.

In fact, all blackpowder-loaded cartridges (with the exception of the .22 LR Palma Match, which was loaded with Lesmoke powder) had been discontinued.

Additionally, many of the American rounds are now gone, as well.

Some of the old, popular BP and transitional cartridges were still being loaded, such as the .38-55, the .45-70, the .40-65, and a few others, but gone were old stalwarts like the .50-70, the .45-75, the .45-60.

The effects of the depression and the coming war were finally taking their toll. I'm just shocked that the black powder loadings continued as long as they did.
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Old July 19, 2017, 07:39 AM   #45
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Just for reference, here's a line up of some popular 38/9mm cartridges.

380ACP...38 S&W...9mmP...38 Super...38 Special...357 Magnum.




Not present are the 9mm Long, the 9x18M, the 357 Maximum, others.
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Old July 19, 2017, 10:38 PM   #46
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My carry load in 38 Super is a 115 JHP at 1425 FPS.
As someone whose never been exposed to .38 Super, this has been a fun and informative thread. With some other "popular 38/9mm cartridges" coming up, I'd add that there are a few 115-grain factory loads for .357 Sig in the 1400-1500 ballpark.
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Old July 20, 2017, 07:36 AM   #47
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The Sig has a larger case capacity and more potential for velocity than the Super. Not sure if anyone shot with either could notice the 100 FPS difference.
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Old July 20, 2017, 10:03 AM   #48
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Extremely cool thread, I like it this one.

Love the .38 spc. Saw a CO toting one yesterday.
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Old July 20, 2017, 10:57 AM   #49
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Something I haven't seen mentioned, yet, is the potential DANGER of confusion .38 Special and .38 Super.

Despite the difference in specs, there are .38 and .357 revolvers that will chamber the .38 Super. And, often they will also FIRE the .38 Super , which a magnum would not mind much, but a .38 Special might get rather upset with.

The Super spec is .384" dia. at the case mouth, and the Special is .379". Because ammo is slightly smaller than max spec (to aid chambering) and chambers are slightly larger than the max ammo spec, stacking tolerances means many .38 Specials will take the Super in the chamber.

Never heard of anyone getting a .38 Special into a .38 Super (besides the rim, its a bit too long) but people have put .38 Supers in .38Specials.

Never heard of anyone blowing up or damaging their .38Special because of it, but all that means is that I've never heard of it happening.
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Old July 21, 2017, 02:29 AM   #50
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A few boxes of 38 Auto and 38 Super Automatic ammo from the 60s to the 90s

The cartridge itself is identical only the loadings were different.



Not only did the name of the cartridge differ over the decades but it was not always consistently the case that the nickel cases were used for the higher pressure ammo. Some manufacturers used the brass.





Once Colt introduced the Colt Super 38 guns in the higher pressure load pressure was placed on S&W to come up with a more powerful loading for their revolvers. This led first to the 38/44 and later the .357 Magnum.

The ammo was originally called the 38 Colt Automatic (aka 38acp) over time the moniker 38 Super round grew.

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