Optics for Bullseye

dgludwig · October 27, 2016, 04:33 AM

Does someone know when "red dots" or its ilk become "legal" for sanctioned Bullseye matches? Was the use of same initially ever challenged by iron sights only advocates? Or were these non-magnifying devices always legitimate to aim with in Bullseye competition?
Thanks.

T. O'Heir · October 27, 2016, 12:35 PM

"...sanctioned Bullseye matches..." Sanctioning depends on who's rules are being followed. No optics allowed in ISSF(Olympic) but optics are ok for NRA Conventional Pistol.
Anyway, dot sights have only been around for roughly 30 years. And not all red dots are suitable. Dots can be too big.

jwrowland77 · October 27, 2016, 12:50 PM

Glad you asked this question. I'm just starting my adventure into Bullseye. Just went and shot my workups yesterday.

I'm planning to use irons though so I can learn the game.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dgludwig · October 27, 2016, 02:31 PM

The question hasn't been answered yet. I'm still interested in when this "travesty" (allowing sights other than optics became "legal" in NRA sanctioned events) became legitimized. As you might guess by now, I'm a "fringe element", wondering when (and how) Bullseye shooting started catering to shooters who wanted the game to be easier to score better with.

"Irons" are the way to start with-and to end with, imo.

velocette · October 27, 2016, 04:05 PM

red dot optics and / or pistol scopes became legal in NRA conventional pistol competition (AKA Bullseye) around 1989. Pistol scopes were first & then soon thereafter, Aimpoint came out with their red dot.
I started with a 2X Bushnell scope, then a 2x Leupold, then an Aimpoint. Still have the .45 with the IMI knockoff of an Aimpoint on it. That knockoff was sold to competitors by the then National Champion in conventional pistol.

dgludwig · October 27, 2016, 04:37 PM

Thanks, velocette.

243winxb · October 28, 2016, 09:31 AM

Good place to ask. http://www.bullseyeforum.net/ I remember scopes being first used in the 70's when i was competing. I remember a shooter having a perfect 300 on the indoor Gallery Course with 22lr.

I tried a 4x on a High Standard Victor Dec 1980, to much power for me. Shot worse.

Quote:

The Aimpoint AB is a manufacturing company founded in 1974 and is based in Malmö, Sweden.

Shot a lot of indoor with this system. http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n...yePistol01.jpg

243winxb · October 28, 2016, 09:46 AM

Quote:

The tradition of utilizing open iron sights in bullseye was first challenged with the introduction of the "Bullseye Pistol Scope" by Burris in the 1960s.

http://bullseyepistol.com/dotsight.htm Google knows all.

dgludwig · October 28, 2016, 02:31 PM

Thanks to all for your insightful inputs. But I'm still wondering when you could "legally" start using an "optic" at NRA sanctioned Bullseye matches, like at Camp Perry. Were the rules changed to accommodate optics or did shooters just start using them because they were never officially prohibited? Velocette said "around 1989." Was there an "official" mandate issued from the NRA?

jwrowland77 · October 28, 2016, 05:40 PM

Email the NRA. They'll probably be able to give you an exact date!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

243winxb · October 28, 2016, 05:51 PM

Still looking. Found this

Quote:

Joe Pascarella, 1981 .45 ACP na-
tional pistol champ at Camp Perry. He
outpointed 845 other contestants with
his AIMPOINT sight. And, he racked
up his championship in a gusty wind!
We'd also like you to know that
Master Sergeant Bonnie Hannon fin-
ished six points behind Joe. You can
guess what sight he has mounted on
his handguns- AIMPOINT, of course!

Date of photo not found.

Photo from http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/brian-zins/

John C · November 24, 2016, 12:46 AM

My understanding is that it wasn't "allowed" or "prohibited". The rules never addressed sighting methods. As mentioned earlier, Gil Hebard introduced pistol scopes, and the rest is history.

Basically, the rules didn't prohibit optic sights because no one considered the possibility in the 1940s and 50s.

dgludwig · November 28, 2016, 08:50 PM

QUOTE: "...Basically, the rules didn't prohibit optic sights because no one considered the possibility in the 1940s and 50s..."

I guess that makes about as much sense as anything else does. I'm just surprised the sanctioning body(s) didn't take into account the sights like they did almost everything else (size of pistol/barrel length/trigger-pull weight, ammunition, etc.).

darkgael · December 16, 2016, 03:28 PM

"Irons are the way to start with and end with".
I disagree (and I shoot with irons).
Easier to shoot better? Are they? Have the records increased substantially since optics were allowed? Bill Blankenship's record of 2674 stood for many years. Shot with irons. It was eclipsed in 1974 by Herschel Anderson's 2680. Still the National record - also shot with irons (iirc). Second place since 2012 has been John Zurek's 2679...don't know what sights Mr. Zurek used.
Are optics easier to use? Y'know, with irons one at least gets the illusion that the sights stop moving. With a dot sight, that never happens. The dot always dances. What the optic does is allow focus on the both the dot and the target together. That allows shooters with failing eyesight to continue to shoot when
their eyes will not accommodate irons. That is a good thing.
In any case, shooting well involves much more than the differences between iron and optical sights.
The magic is still trigger control.

dgludwig · December 17, 2016, 12:33 PM

QUOTE: "... What the optic does is allow focus on the both the dot and the target together..."

Which, of course, makes optics "easier to use". Which is why most all serious shooters today use optics, whether they have failing eyesight or 20/20 vision.

spacecoast · December 17, 2016, 01:17 PM

I stuck it out with iron sights for about 4 years and switched to an inexpensive Bushnell red dot on my 1958 Hi Standard Supermatic Trophy in 2014. I think it's added an average of 15-20 points (at least) to my 900 score. Most of the advantage, I believe, comes at slow fire where I used to be happy to average 80 and now am disappointed if I don't average at least 86 or 87, and have been as high as 97 in a round.

October 27, 2016, 04:33 AM	#1
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	Optics for Bullseye Does someone know when "red dots" or its ilk become "legal" for sanctioned Bullseye matches? Was the use of same initially ever challenged by iron sights only advocates? Or were these non-magnifying devices always legitimate to aim with in Bullseye competition? Thanks. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

October 27, 2016, 12:35 PM	#2
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...sanctioned Bullseye matches..." Sanctioning depends on who's rules are being followed. No optics allowed in ISSF(Olympic) but optics are ok for NRA Conventional Pistol. Anyway, dot sights have only been around for roughly 30 years. And not all red dots are suitable. Dots can be too big. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

October 27, 2016, 02:31 PM	#4
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	The question hasn't been answered yet. I'm still interested in when this "travesty" (allowing sights other than optics became "legal" in NRA sanctioned events) became legitimized. As you might guess by now, I'm a "fringe element", wondering when (and how) Bullseye shooting started catering to shooters who wanted the game to be *easier* to score better with. "Irons" are the way to start with-and to end with, imo. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

October 27, 2016, 04:05 PM	#5
velocette Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2007 Location: South Florida Posts: 924	red dot optics and / or pistol scopes became legal in NRA conventional pistol competition (AKA Bullseye) around 1989. Pistol scopes were first & then soon thereafter, Aimpoint came out with their red dot. I started with a 2X Bushnell scope, then a 2x Leupold, then an Aimpoint. Still have the .45 with the IMI knockoff of an Aimpoint on it. That knockoff was sold to competitors by the then National Champion in conventional pistol. __________________ Trigger control + Breath control + Sight alignment = Gun Control. http://www.hrpclub.info/ NRA Smallbore Prone Master, High Power Master

October 27, 2016, 04:37 PM	#6
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	Thanks, velocette. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

October 27, 2016, 12:50 PM	#3
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Glad you asked this question. I'm just starting my adventure into Bullseye. Just went and shot my workups yesterday. I'm planning to use irons though so I can learn the game. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

October 28, 2016, 02:31 PM	#9
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	Thanks to all for your insightful inputs. But I'm still wondering when you could "legally" start using an "optic" at NRA sanctioned Bullseye matches, like at Camp Perry. Were the rules changed to accommodate optics or did shooters just start using them because they were never officially prohibited? Velocette said "around 1989." Was there an "official" mandate issued from the NRA? __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

October 28, 2016, 05:40 PM	#10
jwrowland77 Senior Member Join Date: March 23, 2012 Location: Conway, Arkansas Posts: 1,398	Email the NRA. They'll probably be able to give you an exact date! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

November 24, 2016, 12:46 AM	#12
John C Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2005 Posts: 127	My understanding is that it wasn't "allowed" or "prohibited". The rules never addressed sighting methods. As mentioned earlier, Gil Hebard introduced pistol scopes, and the rest is history. Basically, the rules didn't prohibit optic sights because no one considered the possibility in the 1940s and 50s.

November 28, 2016, 08:50 PM	#13
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	QUOTE: "...Basically, the rules didn't prohibit optic sights because no one considered the possibility in the 1940s and 50s..." I guess that makes about as much sense as anything else does. I'm just surprised the sanctioning body(s) didn't take into account the sights like they did almost everything else (size of pistol/barrel length/trigger-pull weight, ammunition, etc.). __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

December 16, 2016, 03:28 PM	#14
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	Optics "Irons are the way to start with and end with". I disagree (and I shoot with irons). Easier to shoot better? Are they? Have the records increased substantially since optics were allowed? Bill Blankenship's record of 2674 stood for many years. Shot with irons. It was eclipsed in 1974 by Herschel Anderson's 2680. Still the National record - also shot with irons (iirc). Second place since 2012 has been John Zurek's 2679...don't know what sights Mr. Zurek used. Are optics easier to use? Y'know, with irons one at least gets the illusion that the sights stop moving. With a dot sight, that never happens. The dot always dances. What the optic does is allow focus on the both the dot and the target together. That allows shooters with failing eyesight to continue to shoot when their eyes will not accommodate irons. That is a good thing. In any case, shooting well involves much more than the differences between iron and optical sights. The magic is still trigger control. __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member Last edited by darkgael; December 16, 2016 at 03:34 PM.

December 17, 2016, 12:33 PM	#15
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	QUOTE: "... What the optic does is allow focus on the both the dot and the target together..." Which, of course, makes optics "easier to use". Which is why most all serious shooters today use optics, whether they have failing eyesight or 20/20 vision. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

December 17, 2016, 01:17 PM	#16
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	I stuck it out with iron sights for about 4 years and switched to an inexpensive Bushnell red dot on my 1958 Hi Standard Supermatic Trophy in 2014. I think it's added an average of 15-20 points (at least) to my 900 score. Most of the advantage, I believe, comes at slow fire where I used to be happy to average 80 and now am disappointed if I don't average at least 86 or 87, and have been as high as 97 in a round.