"Can't miss fast enough..."

[FM12]

Rather than hijack another thread, I would like to mention the old saying (in competition, at least) that "YOU cant miss fast enough..." Well, its too bad, cause if there was a class for missing in a rapid manner, I would be at the top!! I might even be the world's record holder!

[kkb]

I always liked the saying "You can have a gun, you can have a temper, but you can't have both."

[OBIWAN]

In competition missing can be embarassing.......

In a gunfight it can be fatal

Before all the "pajama boys" jump on me, I did not say, or imply any reasons why anyone would miss...or that you cannot be fast AND accurate, or that what you wear affects how you shoot- also "pajama boys" is in no way intended to demean anyone that is actually cool enough to sell ad space on their clothing

Sad that I have to include that disclaimer...what a world we live in

[Lurper]

This may hijack the thread, but I get so tired of people saying that. Usually, it is said by those who just aren't fast. It is also used frequently to imply that accuracy is more important than speed. That is hogwash. Sure, a fast miss does no good, but neither does a slow hit. You can lose a match by being too accurate and you can lose your life.

Many people don't understand the concept of practical accuracy. Practical accuracy is being able to hit an 8.5X11 piece of paper at 7 yards for defense and the "A" zone for competition. More accuracy than that is not necessary. There are times in matches and real life where a fast "C" beats a slow "A".

[OBIWAN]

"More accuracy than that is not necessary"

We agree completely

Really...I think 2-3inch groups have no place in defensive pistolcraft...unless the bad guy is only showing 2-3" of his body then precision becomes important

Same with distance...at greater distance, speed becomes less important than accuracy...but you generally can make that tradeoff

Missing the bad guy entirely...as in putting your first shot in the dirt in your haste to be quick...now that is a bad thing and more on topic (I think)

[Axion]

There are times in matches and real life where a fast "C" beats a slow "A".

Agree 100%

Really...I think 2-3inch groups have no place in defensive pistolcraft.

That I disagree with. I find that, like most people, I'm more accurate when I shoot slowly then when I shoot fast. I also find that the more accurate I learn to shoot, when shooting slowly, the tighter my groups are when I'm shooting fast. So I'd argue that spending some time working on tight groups slow fire very much has a place in defensive pistol craft.

[FM12]

Good point LURPER, maybe I'm just too hung up on trying to shoot too small a group in too fast a time. Pretty quick and methodical might be the answer, whaddya think?

[easyG]

A "fast miss" is certainly no worse than a "slow miss".
And bullets heading downrange will definitely affect your opponent's concentration and his efforts to shoot you.

I think everyone should always strive for accuracy and tight groupings.
However, everyone should also strive for putting bullets on target as quickly as possible, once that target has been identified.
If you can't hit your target, slow down a little.
If you can consistantly hit your target, speed up a little.

[OBIWAN]

And move back a little

[computerguysd]

I was kind of surprised at how well I shot by reflex, after doing drills in a class. Repition really seems to be the key, at least for me. I can afford to shoot more than I could when I was younger, and I do.

I'm 54 and not as "fast" as I once was, but I'm probably a lot more reliable and "quicker" than I was 30 years ago since I'm able to practice more regularly than I did then. As an "old dog" I know I'm not supposed to learn new tricks, but maybe since I realize I really don't know as much as I thought I did 30 years ago, I'm more trainable now

[brickeyee]

The Gunsite class I took only had 8 people.
A couple of criminal justice majors trying to get a leg up and 6 middle aged farts.

The two young guys had everyone on speed throughout the class.
At the whistle they would be the first out of leather and firing on the target with 9mm high cap guns.
The targets they fired also looked like a shotgun with buck from 25 yards.
Any head shots were very iffy, even at 3 yards.

In the class shoot off one of them failed to drop a single target (3 pole dropping plates, mandatory reload, split silhouette) after ~15 shots.
Neither could even hit an 8 inch disc at 60 yards with an entire magazine either (no time limit).

I think accuracy is harder to get than speed.
If you have accuracy you can start to speed up (or slow down) to meet the situation.
If you cannot hot the target going slow, you are surely going to miss it going fast.

While 2-3 inch may be tighter than needed most of the time for self defense, not being able to perform to this level when required could be a real problem.

[5whiskey]

I don't shoot as much as I should nowdays. I used to average at least 100 rds a week through pistol and maybe a tad more in rifle. I've shot two times in the past 6 weeks, both times I put maybe 30 rounds total through either rifle or pistol (I was focused more on teaching others basic marksmanship).

I have always found that no matter the number of rounds I put downrange I can always benifit by slowing it down and getting back to basics. I spent a period of probably six months where I focused primarily on speed, dynamic shooting, target acquisition and recognition, multiple targets, ect. All of the more advanced stuff. I was always satisfied within reason with my results, but I always thought I could do better. So I went back to the basics of marksmanship for a few weeks and then resumed with more advanced stuff. I was amazed at how much better I felt and was. Hit percentages went up quiet a bit.

Start slow to master the principles from marksmanship. If you can't master them without thinking about it then don't even think about speed. When shooting becomes second nature, and you don't have to force yourself not to jerk the trigger or use proper wrist pressure (I used too much when I started shooting pistols), then you can speed up. If you can't do it slow you certainly won't be able to do it fast.

That being said, speed is important. Hence training to become that fast is important. If you can draw and get a hit in under a second, then rock on. Why on earth would that ever be a bad thing? I know I'm preaching to the choir hear, most of you make excellent points.

FM12...
Mind the fact that if you can't shoot a tight group slow then you certainly won't be able to fast, but I think you know that. If you can shoot tight slow fire but having a problem once you step up to rapid then try this technique...

Practice squeezing the trigger and holding it, yes holding it even after the gun has fired. Once you have settled the recoil then SLOWLY release the trigger until you hear/feel a "click" (usually the catch on the trigger catching the sear). As soon as you hear this click, thunk, or whatever it sounds like to you, pull the trigger again. This eliminates virtually all take up in the trigger and is effective at keeping you from jerking the trigger, one of the reasons manys' groups open up substantially with rapid fire. Start out slow to moderate speed and work your way up. Begin by focusing on releasing the trigger AFTER the recoil has settled, then you can work on releasing AS the recoil is settling.

This should help you some but isn't the be-all end-all. There are many other factors such as resetting the sight alignment and picture after recoil, proper wrist pressure to reduce the effects of recoil, ect. This is one of the simplest things I can explain on here that I think will help you.


And to the many who already knew, I apoligize.

[easyG]

I don't think anyone is saying that speed can replace basic marksmanship...speed cannot compensate for lack of shooting ability.
And I cannot argue against the notion that slow shooting and "taking your time" will generally give greater accuracy on the range.

HOWEVER....

There will certainly be times in real life shooting situations where you will not have the luxury of slow pin-point-precise shooting.
You might find yourself in a situation where you have but a second to identify the threat and shoot...and if you never practive fast shooting then you will definitely be at a disadvantage.
And if the other guys is fast on the trigger, will you even have the ability to make slow deliberate shots with rounds zinging toward your body and head?

It's the difference between sitting in a treestand and shooting a deer vs being surprised by a mountain-lion and having to draw and shoot quickly.
You should be able to do both with reasonable accuracy.

[Desert01]

Not sure if this is in response to my original comment in another line. For defense a miss is a round that doesn't hit the threat and provide the effect desired on the threat.

Firing fast and hitting the threat is the point. Contact distance vs. 21 feet have differant scales. Blasing away with a 15 rnd clip in 3 seconds and not hitting the threat is not effective. 2 incapacitating rounds that stop or slow the threat is effective. 2 "A Zone" Hits center mass after the threat kills three is not a success.

Finaly, as in most things, remember there are no absolutes. I once toook second in a Night shoot at Ft. Benning. I never did figure it out since I fired half the rounds the winner did, 3x the number of hits, a higher A and B zone count, but he shot more rounds faster. In the defensive world more then one miss has ended a fight and more then one "A-Zone" Hit failed to stop the threat.

Also I should have dropped the win comment, it was not in the original. Hitting is the point, how fast you can do so is a matter of how well you train. FM12 begin your drills slow, then work up the speed, when your groups open up to much for you back off until the groups are the size you are looking for. You will shoot pleanty fast enough with an adrenilane dump.

[FM12]

Thanks for the comments, dont stop now, keep them coming!!

[Lurper]

I think we all can agree that totally missing the target is not a good thing (even though it may stop the attack). However, if it takes you 2 seconds to be able to line up your sight and fire your shot precisely in the center of the target, you may never get to fire that shot. A lot can happen in 2 seconds:

[Axion]

A lot can happen in 2 seconds:

Yes it can. I pity the fool who gets in a gun fight with you.

[Hard Ball]

"if it takes you 2 seconds to be able to line up your sight and fire your shot precisely in the center of the target, you may never get to fire that shot. A lot can happen in 2 seconds"

Exsellent point!

[Hard Ball]

I feel that Jeff Cooper was right when he said "Draw as fast as you can and shoot as slow as you must."

[Desert01]

Very good demo Lurper. Another 20,000 rnds and I hope to catch up with you

[OBIWAN]

"Contact distance vs. 21 feet have differant scales"

Actually I consider 21ft to be contact distance

Not really....at actual contact distance my pistol may not even be employed

At 21 ft it is more likely but that is still "danger close"

There is an inverse proportion to distance/time....the further you are away the less vital speed becomes...and the more time you are likely to have

In most "close encounters" I would sacrifice a half second in return for moving off the line of attack

And yet if you are overstressing speed you would likely avoid lateral movement

The point is that pure speed means nothing without accuracy

What is that quote about how much time you have to draw your weapon "the rest of your life"

[Sarge]

Good shootin', Lurper.

I think the DVC equation, as it relates to real-world defensive shooting, is best resolved by the following:

1. You must make an accurate evaluation of your situation. This includes the degree of threat posed by your problem, the immediacy of the problem, the range to the target, your own shooting skills, and the predictable results of each round you are about to fire. The interesting part is that you often get a split second to process all this- about the length of the 'beep' made by Lurper's timer, if you're lucky.

2. You make a decision and commit to a course of action. There will be no turning back. For the purposes of this discussion, we'll say you decided to shoot until a) the threat drops, or b) you can get to cover.

3. You follow through, with the fastest accurate fire you can deliver and maintain until your problem is solved. You must force yourself to concentrate on nothing else, oblivious to fear, pain from wounds you suffer yourself, and the melee of noise all around you. The reality of all this may be experienced (to a degree) by listening to the radio traffic of the first KCPD officer who confronted the ‘mall shooter’ last Sunday. This officer did real well, considering what he was up against. He got some hits, too.

http://interface.audiovideoweb.com/l...2.wma/play.asx

Here’s the kicker. After 25 years of this stuff, I am absolutely convinced that the only way conventional handguns will produce an instant shutdown, is if your gunfire interrupts the upper levels of the central nervous system. This calls for a level of precision beyond what we typically consider ‘good’ hits, and is roughly comparable to hitting a curvy upright broomstick taped to the back of your opponent- who will be presented at an angle, partially obscured, moving, shooting back, etc.

There is no correct answer, except for 'What works in the situation you happen to be caught up in.' Despite the best training we can offer, these things often start out and finish up as nothing more than two or more guys emptying their guns at each other, while moving, at dart throwing distances or closer. They are often shooting at each other in, from or around automobiles or other substantial cover.

From the LE perspective, I think our training needs to insure that we make good and immediate use-of-force decisions, fight ruthlessly once that decision is made, and make good CNS (centerline) hits as early in the fight as possible. We may well have to fire a burst at the outset, but we had better get those precision shots in as soon as the sights can be aligned. As the old saying goes “You have to be good- real good. The other guy only has to be lucky.”

[pax]

Speed means nothing without accuracy.

Accuracy means nothing without speed.

Practice the one you're worse at until you're better at that. Then practice the one you're worse at until you're better at that.

And keep doing it.

pax

[Lurper]

I have to agree with Obi, 21 feet is contact distance. I can say that at distances from about 7 ft to 7yards, I would use the same technique as in the video. Distances greater than that I would be more precise (notice I didn't metion slow). Closer than that, there are a couple of techniques that are even quicker. At less than about 6 ft., you can fire as soon as the gun clears leather ( the old "combat rock" method) and continue to fire as you present the weapon (zippering). Those techniques will trim a considerable amount of time. However, having said that, one cannot stress the importance of practicing those techniques to the point that you can perform the actions without thinking. The point is to score the fastest hit, not just the fastest shot. Also, I believe that in most cases for civilians you will already have your weapon in your hand, not a holster.

In my experience, cover doesn't matter. I know that may get me killed someday but that is what I have gathered from personal experience and that of my friends. IMHO, being able to put lead on the target quickly is THE most important skill. As has been mentioned, you should be of the mindset that you fire until the threat is removed. In fairness, when the guy tried to kick in my door a few months ago (I posted the details here after it happened), I was behind cover, but the other incidents I was involved with unfolded too quickly. Had he attacked before I closed the door on him, there would have been no time for cover.

1. You must make an accurate evaluation of your situation.

This is the time for thinking. Once assessed and the decision to shoot is made, you don't want to have to think, only to act.

The point is that pure speed means nothing without accuracy

This is probably nitpicking, but I would modify that by saying speed means nothing without hitting the target. To me, accuracy infers a high degree of precision. I'd be happier hitting the target first shot anywhere if I could do it half a second faster than I could ensure a hit c.o.m.. That's because I know that I am firing more than one shot and hopefully being hit will interrupt his thought patterns and make him think about something besides marksmanship.

I am going to be filming some of those up close & personal techniques for a video I am making. I will post excerpts here after we shoot them. You'd be amazed at how quickly a person can fire five shots with the proper training.

Okay, here is yet another shameless (although on topic) plug:


Oh BTW, the distance for both drills in the videos is 7 yards.

[PzGren]

Pax,

this is what I always tell my sons: make your weaknesses your strengthes by working on them. Not just in shooting, also for the SAT, and other things.

You can't miss fast enough - but if you face somebody and he has the first shots at you, your aim will deteriorate.

In the end a good mix will be just that, a good mix. And that's what might be necessary. Once you've been hit, no matter how accurate you are, things are different. Will a lousy hit aimed at your heart but hitting your pelvis make you shoot better?