For Currently Employed LEOs

[MTT TL]

I am curious. I hear quite a bit about how police are not well trained in firearm usage and don't practice much. For most of the police I know this appears to be untrue but "people I know" is hardly a representative sample. You do not have to identify your agency if you do not want to.

Any current, armed, sworn law enforcement or military police is what I am wondering about. If you retired 5-40 years ago that tells us what it tells us in the past but is not really what I am looking for.

1- How many training and Qualification rounds a year do you shoot for and through your agency?

Pistol/ Rifle/ Shotgun/ other

2- If you are on a special team such as Sniper/ Swat/ High Risk Apprehension etc do you shoot additional rounds and if so how many training/ qualification/ competition?

3. How often does your agency conduct live firearm training per year?

4. If you shoot training rounds such as sims out of your regular duty weapons how much of that do you do on an annual basis?

5. What is your round count annually on either your service weapon or similar/ same type weapon on your own time, with your provided ammo?

[shurshot]

Quals 100 rounds, 50/50, annual.
Low light quals, 100, 50/50 rounds, annual.
Sims training, annual.
Practice / additional training available upon request. The 3 training / mandatory qualification sessions are broken up and offered throughout the year. Excellent instruction.

Off duty, I shoot often. I don't count rounds, I just shoot.

[Nanuk]

I am retired, but I am in almost daily contact wit guys from my former agency thru my contract work, and we talk.

1- How many training and Qualification rounds a year do you shoot for and through your agency?

They currently get about training/practice rounds 200 pistol. No training ammo for rifle/shotgun past the academy. Qualification- takes 72 for pistol, 100 for rifle and 25 for shotgun conducted 2X per year down from 4X a year.

Pistol/ Rifle/ Shotgun/ other

2- If you are on a special team such as Sniper/ Swat/ High Risk Apprehension etc do you shoot additional rounds and if so how many training/ qualification/ competition?

N/A

3. How often does your agency conduct live firearm training per year?

Lucky to go to advanced training every 10 years.

4. If you shoot training rounds such as sims out of your regular duty weapons how much of that do you do on an annual basis?

They now get "training ammo" 200 a years as noted above.

5. What is your round count annually on either your service weapon or similar/ same type weapon on your own time, with your provided ammo?

ZERO. They are forbidden to use anything but issue ammo in gov guns.

And this is a federal agency with money and according to the conspiracy theorists have billions of rounds of ammo.

30 years ago when I was working in El Paso our sector would go thru 500,000 rounds of 357 magnum a year for roughly 1500 agents. we did A LOT of shooting,.

[JERRYS.]

1. countless [600-2,000?], range days are open a few times a month for practice and or qualification with primary, back-up, rifle and shotgun.

2. I'm not.

3. see #1.

4. simunition rounds are not shot through duty guns, they are only shot through specialty guns.

5. maybe 100 rounds of my own on top of what the department provides.

[tlm225]

Retired two years ago but my information is still current.

1- How many training and Qualification rounds a year do you shoot for and through your agency? 80 rounds handgun. One 50 round state qualification and six months later a 30 round tactical couse of fire

Pistol/ Rifle/ Shotgun/ other 9 rounds buck and slug 7-25 yards. 30 rounds rifle 7-50 yards twice yearly

2- If you are on a special team such as Sniper/ Swat/ High Risk Apprehension etc do you shoot additional rounds and if so how many training/ qualification/ competition? Quarterly, 50 rounds qualification, 150 rounds training

3. How often does your agency conduct live firearm training per year? We rarely had training ammo except for new hires. Over my 23 years we might get actual live fire training one every three years

4. If you shoot training rounds such as sims out of your regular duty weapons how much of that do you do on an annual basis?We only had SIM training for non swat members twice in my 23 years

5. What is your round count annually on either your service weapon or similar/ same type weapon on your own time, with your provided ammo? I personally fired +/- 2,000 rounds a year through my duty gun providing my own ammo in addition to shooting my other personal guns.

Our annual ammo budget was $7,000.00 for an 80 officer department for my last three years. The only saving grace for us was a prior trainer had really stockpiled ammo several years earlier so we were consuming far more than we bought the last few years. Thank our city leaders for underfunding us on ammo and most of our other training needs.

Despite the rather meager round count I dispute the common claim that cops can't shoot. Since retiring I have spent a lot of time on public ranges. If you match the average officer up against a true gun enthusiast the enthusiast will absolutely out shoot the typical officer. But the typical non-LEO citizen shooter is a much worse shot that the average LEO in my observation. I have seen the occasional exceptional citizen shooter but they are in the minority IME.

[bamaranger]

Equating LE firearms training from 2014 through 1979 ("retired 5-40 years ago tells us what it tells us in the past") is shortsighted. It's those very years that have seen the evolution of LE firearms training and practices. It's those very officers (recently retired) that can comment on the changes.

In 1979 I'd think many PD's were still carrying revolvers, the "wondernine" years was still on the horizon. The tragic FBI Miami shoot out was still 7 years away, (and was won by an agent with a REVOLVER). Patrol carbines for the rank and file were about unheard of, as were dot sights, if an officer had a long gun at all, it likely was a shotgun. The North Hollywood shootout in 1997 was the fulcrum for patrol carbines. High round count PPC type courses were accepted as "qualification" and nobody had ever heard of Simunitions.

Nobody cares what the old guys know....these days if somebody needs to know anything, folks just look it up on their phone.

[MTT TL]

It's not that I don't care I am just looking at what is current.

There is a perception out there that police don't train, can't shoot, don't know the law etc. At least some of that perception is perpetrated by retired officers who invariably say; "When I was a cop we shot once a year and it didn't matter if you qualified or not" or some equally unqualified statement.

From what I have seen Federal Agencies tend to do the least amount of annual training and shooting for their average agents. This makes sense for the most part as most Federal Agents are rarely ever involved in shootings and more involved in investigative and coordination activities. People then assume that less resourced agencies shoot less, because "Federal Government" right? But it seems to me the closer to the street the LEA gets the more they tend to do.

[USNRet93]

I find it pretty surprising that for a organization, where carrying a firearm is standard for their 'job', to shoot so seldom, so few rounds per year. Yesterday I shot more rounds in one session than most LEOs do in a year or more(about 350 rounds)...

This makes sense for the most part as most Federal Agents are rarely ever involved in shootings and more involved in investigative and coordination activities.

Their chance of being involved in a shooting is much higher than mine..

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by MTT TL

But it seems to me the closer to the street the LEA gets the more they tend to do.

I know a few officers from a couple of nearby municipalities, and I encounter others at the range where I shoot. To be blunt, I think by asking here you are going to get a heavily slanted view. Rather than asking how many rounds "you" fire each year, IMHO you should be asking LEOs how many rounds their department's average (if there is any such thing) officer shoots. LEOs who hang out on "gun" forums such as this I think can fairly be considered to have more of an interest in firearms and shooting than the average street cop.

The range where I shoot is an indoor range, one of only a few in the county. A number of local police departments use the place for their annual qualifications. And on more than one occasion I have encountered the training officer for the town in which the range is located at the range with ONE officer. Why only one? Because that officer had failed the annual requalification, and was there solo with the training officer for his second or third try at qualifying so he could keep his job.

There is no one-size-fits-all answer here. There are some officers who practice because they enjoy shooting. There are some officers who practice even though they don't enjoy shooting. And there are some officers who only practice a week before their requalification.

[Ton]

Aguila hit it on the head.

I work for a relatively large city department. We train quarterly with our primary duty weapon. If you carry a rifle (optional) you train quarterly with the rifle as well. There is additional ammo available for training on your own, the amount depends on the budget for the year.

We qualify annually.

I would equate the minimum standard for our states qualification to running a 9 minute mile. A 9 minute mile requires some degree of fitness, however a fitness enthusiast is likely to beat the time by a significant margin. On the same token our minimum qualification requires some degree of competence, however someone who is serious about training will exceed the minimum standard by a significant margin.

Cops are all individuals with different interests. Cops who never owned a gun prior to the academy aren't likely to ever train beyond the minimum standard. However the career path tends to attract those who do have an interest. The majority of the officers I work with train beyond the minimum standard. That being said, the officers who shoot competition regularly are definitely the minority and are signicantly more skilled and competent than the average officer.

[MTT TL]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I know a few officers from a couple of nearby municipalities, and I encounter others at the range where I shoot. To be blunt, I think by asking here you are going to get a heavily slanted view. Rather than asking how many rounds "you" fire each year, IMHO you should be asking LEOs how many rounds their department's average (if there is any such thing) officer shoots. LEOs who hang out on "gun" forums such as this I think can fairly be considered to have more of an interest in firearms and shooting than the average street cop.

The range where I shoot is an indoor range, one of only a few in the county. A number of local police departments use the place for their annual qualifications. And on more than one occasion I have encountered the training officer for the town in which the range is located at the range with ONE officer. Why only one? Because that officer had failed the annual requalification, and was there solo with the training officer for his second or third try at qualifying so he could keep his job.

There is no one-size-fits-all answer here. There are some officers who practice because they enjoy shooting. There are some officers who practice even though they don't enjoy shooting. And there are some officers who only practice a week before their requalification.

That is why the questions are written the way they are. Question #1 is designed to catch what most LEO's are going to shoot at their agency. Every agency will be different. Should not matter whether they hang on a gun forum or not.

Question #5 will be more appropriate for those interested in guns here.

The other questions should catch the other variables. How would you have worded it differently?

I would equate the minimum standard for our states qualification to running a 9 minute mile.

Ironically in my state the POST standard for the run is a 10 minute mile. This is crazy slow. Even at my advanced age and overall not so great physical condition this would be pretty easy.

[JERRYS.]

its just too varied. I work with guys [on the street] that are single and shoot more than they drink believe it or not. in this same agency there are school resource officers and community relations officers and bike patrol officers who have relatively quiet duty, many have to re-shoot to qualify because that is the only time they fire their sidearm.

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

I know a few officers from a couple of nearby municipalities, and I encounter others at the range where I shoot. To be blunt, I think by asking here you are going to get a heavily slanted view. Rather than asking how many rounds "you" fire each year, IMHO you should be asking LEOs how many rounds their department's average (if there is any such thing) officer shoots. LEOs who hang out on "gun" forums such as this I think can fairly be considered to have more of an interest in firearms and shooting than the average street cop.

The range where I shoot is an indoor range, one of only a few in the county. A number of local police departments use the place for their annual qualifications. And on more than one occasion I have encountered the training officer for the town in which the range is located at the range with ONE officer. Why only one? Because that officer had failed the annual requalification, and was there solo with the training officer for his second or third try at qualifying so he could keep his job.

There is no one-size-fits-all answer here. There are some officers who practice because they enjoy shooting. There are some officers who practice even though they don't enjoy shooting. And there are some officers who only practice a week before their requalification.

Bingo. This forum is a microcosm, as are most, and they can lead you to have very slanted views. I spend a moderate amount of time shooting at the range and taking training courses. When I go to a true public range I'm mildly dumbfounded at some marksmanship I see. I've also seen officers in training courses flag their own bodies with their muzzles, repeatedly shoot the wrong target, and have form that was problematic. I've also seen officers in those same courses that are SWAT or similar and they're downright impressive. Like the civilian side, it varies a lot based on personal interest.

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[JERRYS.]

Originally Posted by MTT TL

That is why the questions are written the way they are. Question #1 is designed to catch what most LEO's are going to shoot at their agency. Every agency will be different. Should not matter whether they hang on a gun forum or not.

Question #5 will be more appropriate for those interested in guns here.

The other questions should catch the other variables. How would you have worded it differently?



Ironically in my state the POST standard for the run is a 10 minute mile. This is crazy slow. Even at my advanced age and overall not so great physical condition this would be pretty easy.

the minimum PT standard for some states is 15:28 for 1.5 miles, that's based off of a 10 minute mile standard for males, age 40 and up. the new standard that agencies are going to is the row machine. it is being used because it eliminates the impact on the joints from running so even old road officers and admins can do it. it measures the VO2 ratio or something like that and there are percentages of acceptable times and distances based on age and weight. its suppose to be the newest thing.

[MTT TL]

Hopefully the criminals will take to rowing boats away from their crimes.

[TunnelRat]

Rowing machines are no joke though. Rowing is excellent exercise. You still need to be able to run, but the number of older guys I know with knees that are shot (not literally) isn't insignificant.

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[TXAZ]

Originally Posted by USNRet93

I find it pretty surprising that for a organization, where carrying a firearm is standard for their 'job', to shoot so seldom, so few rounds per year. Yesterday I shot more rounds in one session than most LEOs do in a year or more(about 350 rounds)...


Their chance of being involved in a shooting is much higher than mine..

Ditto here USN.
400 rounds is what I typically go thru at a (~monthly) indoor range handgun trip (400= capacity of favorite gun mags)

I would have *hoped* all LEOs would shoot much better than me.

[Screwball]

I started with CBP in April... my issued P2000 has 1,832 round through it right now. Majority is from the academy, but also did a bi-yearly qualification two weeks back. Course of fire is 30 rounds, we do two practices, then two for score. Best out of two.

The 870s, we shot probably 200 or so rounds in training, including “qualification.” Field qualification... five rounds of slugs. Forget what you actually need to do, since I emptied the gun and got off the last round in a tight group (center mass) and actually had my firearms instructor laughing that he was trying to talk me through the gun.

M4... again, somewhere around 200 rounds at the academy. Field qualifications... less than 60. Think it is at 100 yards, then 50 and in. No time were we allowed to practice on full-auto... but was said that we could use in within 7 yards during field qualification.

In the academy, we did SIMs like twice... very limited. Used blank guns a few times. No idea if we use either in training up here, but I’ve seen pictures with blue framed guns... so probably.

We are not given training ammo anymore. Someone tried to put in for overtime while practicing, so only get duty ammo (which is actually what we are qualifying with). We are moving to 9mm Glocks, so I am not really interested in supplying .40 for a short period of time. 9mm... no issue since my off duty guns are mostly 9mm.

Need to get through a winter up here to see what my annual round count will be... as that would be a huge difference if weather reduces it.

[Steve in PA]

This is for department qualification/training. For me personally, I shoot every weekend.

1a) Qualifications: Duty handgun (60), off-duty (50), patrol rifle (40), shotgun (10).

1b) Training: Depends......several hundred each for handgun/rifle.

2) N/A

3) Once a year. Governing body for LE in PA minimum. We've tried having informal shoots, but no interest.

4) N/A (no sims)

5) LOL........I shoot a ton!!!!! My wife and I shoot every Saturday at a local indoor range and we usually shoot 100 rounds each. My wife shoots either my Glock 26 or her S&W 642. During the summer and early fall, I shoot my Sig P220. Fall into hunting season I'm shooting one of my .44 Mag revolvers. Over the winter and into spring I shoot in a .22lr league and shoot one of my semi-auto handguns.

I try and attend several LE instructor courses or training shoots every year. Hard to say how many .223 rounds I've shot through my AR.

[davidsog]

400 rounds is what I typically go thru at a (~monthly) indoor range handgun trip (400= capacity of favorite gun mags)

Which is twice what most LE's shoot a year.

[TXAZ]

Originally Posted by davidsog

Which is twice what most LE's shoot a year.

That’s concerning as LEOs are “the line”. I would hope they could easily outshoot most everyone at typical handgun range... (<25 yards)

[TunnelRat]

Originally Posted by TXAZ

That’s concerning as LEOs are “the line”. I would hope they could easily outshoot most everyone at typical handgun range... (<25 yards)

Depends on "they" and "everyone". If you mean your average patrol officer against a gun owner that shoots a few times a year probably. If you mean a SWAT or similar team officer against a gun owner, enthusiast or not, most likely. If you mean an average patrol officer against a gun owning enthusiast most likely not. Based on my experience from what I've observed in courses I've taken (and talking to the officers in those courses).

I think there's a mentality developed from Hollywood that most police officers are gun people. That's not always true. The level of interest varies a lot. We see even here, and from officers I've talked to, that those that are truly interested often dip into their own wallets to buy more ammunition and/or training. At the least they have to spend additional time. For an officer that might get through a career having never fired a shot in anger it might be easy to convince yourself that you're fine as is. To be fair, unknown unknowns aren't easy to overcome. A person might not even realize his/her skills are deficient until they train with others with greater skills.

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[Don Fischer]

When I lived in Montana I had a friend that was on the Highway Patrol. Figured he'd shoot a lot, pretty good shooting buddy. I asked him about it. He hated shooting! The only gun he had was his duty gun and the only time it left his holster was once a year when he had to qualify! Really surprised me. Then again I worked on a base rifle range in the service, USAF. What I saw on there would terrify you. The worst of the bunch were older NCO's, I have no idea how they kept from shooting themselves! Qualifying in the AF was a joke, you could about do it throwing rocks at the target!

Something that always got me was here were people that actually had little use for firearms and it showed. But should the occasion arise where they might have to and they were going to die! Would be the same way in a police dept. Lot of cops never take out a gun but what they should train for is the one time they actually have to. I ran into a cop in NYC years ago. I was in a small store in Harlem and an alarm went off. Two cops walked in the door and let no one out till they found out what was going on. I noticed one cops gun, solid mass of rust. If he had to use it I'm not sure it would work. Obviously he didn't give a hoot about guns. To bad as at some point his life could hinge on that!

In any profession where your required to qualify even just yearly, the people doing it should be serious about using the gun. They may never need it and that's fine, the problem is if for some reason they do need it! Good chance then they die. Our police officer's should be well above average shooter's, in their business their life could depend on it, forget someone else's life. Qualifying once a year or even quarterly is a joke. In the extreme think about an infantry soldier in battle. Really thing it does any good for him not to be all he can with his rifle? I think his life depends on it!

Cops in a good program for training and taking advantage of it, my hat's off to you! Those that don't take advantage of it, good luck, you won't know you really need it until you need it and then it's to late!

[shurshot]

I see very few LEO's who are true "Gun guys", or who can shoot exceptionally well. A few are even rabid anti gun people, which is much more concerning to me than those who can't shoot very well.

[MTT TL]

Originally Posted by Don Fischer

When I lived in Montana I had a friend that was on the Highway Patrol. Figured he'd shoot a lot, pretty good shooting buddy. I asked him about it. He hated shooting! The only gun he had was his duty gun and the only time it left his holster was once a year when he had to qualify! Really surprised me. Then again I worked on a base rifle range in the service, USAF. What I saw on there would terrify you. The worst of the bunch were older NCO's, I have no idea how they kept from shooting themselves! Qualifying in the AF was a joke, you could about do it throwing rocks at the target!

Something that always got me was here were people that actually had little use for firearms and it showed. But should the occasion arise where they might have to and they were going to die! Would be the same way in a police dept. Lot of cops never take out a gun but what they should train for is the one time they actually have to. I ran into a cop in NYC years ago. I was in a small store in Harlem and an alarm went off. Two cops walked in the door and let no one out till they found out what was going on. I noticed one cops gun, solid mass of rust. If he had to use it I'm not sure it would work. Obviously he didn't give a hoot about guns. To bad as at some point his life could hinge on that!

In any profession where your required to qualify even just yearly, the people doing it should be serious about using the gun. They may never need it and that's fine, the problem is if for some reason they do need it! Good chance then they die. Our police officer's should be well above average shooter's, in their business their life could depend on it, forget someone else's life. Qualifying once a year or even quarterly is a joke. In the extreme think about an infantry soldier in battle. Really thing it does any good for him not to be all he can with his rifle? I think his life depends on it!

Cops in a good program for training and taking advantage of it, my hat's off to you! Those that don't take advantage of it, good luck, you won't know you really need it until you need it and then it's to late!

Thanks Don, your post illustrates exactly the point I am making.