S&W partially pulling out of Massachusetts

[Mike Irwin]

Just announced that they're moving a big chunk of their operations, including their headquarters, to Tennessee in response to a bill in the Mass. legislature that would ban the in-state manufacture of "assault weapons."

I want to know why the company isn't pulling out of Massachusetts COMPLETELY.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/sm...BingNewsSearch

[Jim Watson]

I think it is the heavy equipment at the old plant.
You don't just put a multi ton drop forge in your suitcase and head down the road.

[44 AMP]

I want to know why the company isn't pulling out of Massachusetts COMPLETELY.

Well, for one thing, they're not operating under Biden's orders!

Moving a manufacturing factory isn't easy, or cheap. And that's without consideration to the history involved, or the workforce. Just physically movong the equipment to a new location, setting it all back up and meeting all the legal requirements doing it isn't cheap, and then there's the additional cost in lost revenue while this is going on.

So, its only smart to do it in stages. They won't just walk away. I mean, think of the headlines if they did...

Millions of $ of weapons and parts left behind for the "rebels" of Massachusetts to seize!"

Remington never left NY (though they should have) before Remington ...went away..
Colt is still in Hartford...
Ruger got smart some years back, but there's still a lot being done at their original New England location...

Until and unless its going to cost you more to stay than to go, businesses usually don't move. But when it is going to cost them big $ to stay, they generally "beat feet" pretty quick.

[Tom Servo]

It looks like they're keeping revolver manufacturing and some tooling operations there. It could be those employees can't make the move to Tennessee.

[eflyguy]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

the workforce

Don't underestimate this.

As undesirable as the place might be, every employee can't just pack up and relocate - and finding replacements in a new location is not easy.

I can't get a job in IT with the local school board at 1/3 of my previous salary, I'm "way too overqualified"..

[Mike Irwin]

"Moving a manufacturing factory isn't easy, or cheap. "

Really? I had no idea!

If the Russians could do it, Smith & Wesson can do it.

[44 AMP]

If the Russians could do it, Smith & Wesson can do it.

I suspect a slightly different level of urgency would apply. S&W doesn't have the resources of the Soviet govt, and they aren't trying to move their factory out of the range of Nazi bombers as fast as possible.

Just out of the range of idiotic Mass law...

[HiBC]

Pure speculation,I don't KNOW anything...

S+W will have some senior "Old School" skilled workers necessary to build the
"Old School" guns,like revolvers..
The plant design and workflowwill be different for making revolvers than it will be for making AR's and polymer framed M+P handguns.

And I would guess there is a requirement for two different "Quality Cultures"
Not judging either but a product is desgned for the manufacturing technology of the day.
The old firearms manufacturers were established to take advantage of a mill wheel in a stream driving a jack shaft overhead.
Injection molding? I worked in a facility designed by Samsonite/Lego to be a massive njection molding facility. Think 480 vo;t 3 phase for the hydrauics and heaters. Water for the temp control units. The material must be so dry that 15 minutes exposure to atmosphere a degrade the engineering proprties of the resin by near 50%.
That means dessicant bed driers at each ,mold press. Modern plants deliver the resin pellets to the machines through pneumatic ducts.
There are robotics interacd with digital cameras monitoring the run plus performing secondary operations. Think IT .

The plant layout to provde efficient work flow through all that is critical.

A manufacturing facility will evolve as a patchwork quilt over time,a series of budget driven add ons.Like the old house that got a room added on with each of the 11 new kids
A 20 + year workforce has a long memory with grievances and baggage.

Starting over with a clean sheet of paper CAN result in transformation.

To what? Remains to be seen.

Might be better than Bangor Punta

Workforrce and tooling to produce high quality AR-15s and M+P pistols at a competitive price are different than what it takes to produce classic double action revolvers where at least the appearance of hand fitted fine workmanship is crucial.

I imagine among the workforce,within the same plant ,will be divsions and cliques that generate problems.
I doubt consistent management is possible between the Old School and Modern Manufacturing employees.

I've never worked in a Union Shop,but I imagine there are serious negotiations going on,along with factions wthin the Union.

"You can make all of the people happy some of the time...."

[44 AMP]

I've never worked in a Union Shop,but I imagine there are serious negotiations going on,along with factions wthin the Union.

One of the things people who've never worked in a Union Shop seldom realize is that bottom line, the union and the company have a contract with each other. It is the responsibility of both parties to see that their workers live up to and abide by the existing contract.

Disputes over things covered in the contract are generally settled by some kind of compromise and mutual consent. When this does not happen, things go to arbitration.

Things not covered under the existing contract are open to negotiation. This may be handled as an appendix to the existing contract, or may require a new contract, depending on the specific situation.

Despite often seeming otherwise, unions are not idiots, they know they exist for the benefit of their members, and that is why the members pay dues. A company that is legally driven out of business by some law (unless they relocate) doesn't employ workers, and without employment, the union gets no dues, and may also cease to exist.

A union may be out to screw the company, but not at the cost of cutting their own throat. They just won't do that, assuming of course that those in charge actually recognize that is what they are doing...

[Lima Oscar 7]

I have sold manufacturing equipment to The Big Three, Toyota, Honda and BMW as well as Lockheed, Boeing and Defense Plants since 1988. They are probably waiting until the old machine tools, some of which are huge and would require precision leveling to be moved and re-installed, can be replaced. When the time and resources come for replacement, they will be commissioned in TN. The brain trust for revolvers may not want to leave MA also.

[Tom Servo]

They are probably waiting until the old machine tools, some of which are huge and would require precision leveling to be moved and re-installed, can be replaced.

And that may be a BIG part of it.

For context, I'm in the trucking industry. Spicer is the main supplier for driveshafts and u-joints, and they're backordered until January due to some sourcing issue. Seemingly small factors like that can create huge ripples.

If there are similar problems with machine tools, I can imagine nobody wants to mess with anything for the time being.

[ATN082268]

Welcome to Tennessee, S&W You're only about a half hour away from me now...

[5whiskey]

Let’s not forget the ultimate why of the OP and let it drown in a sea of logistics discussion. S&W leaving Mass over 100 years later is a huge deal, and the reason behind it is a huge deal. Ok they aren’t completely vacating, for many reasons covered. The fact that they make the move at all is significant, for those very same reasons.

[HiBC]

I listened to a S+W rep on Greshams radio show to day.
I got the idea S+W is doing this reluctantly.

At these times of great demand,its awkward and expensive to disrupt production. The move and facilities will cost in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Its not about saving a few buck in wages.

Pretty much,the state of Mass is a hostile environment for the gun biz.

S+W is not welcome.

Already,many of S+W's product line cannot be sold in Mass.

But the impending shadow is new legislation that is not going to go away.

I cannot accurately describe the details,but essentially Mass is likely to ban the manufacture of the M+P line of handguns and "Modern Sporting Rifles"

It would seem S+W does not have a lot of choice.

At one time,around Bangor Punta days, I had a low opinion of Corporate S+W. I would not buy one.

Over time,I think they have changed for the better. They have listened to the voice of the customer. The M+P handgun line including the Shield offers a quality,affordable "unGlock" for those of us who prefer that option. (I think the Glock is a Great gun)
Honestly,I have not used one of their AR-15's . I assume they make a decent one for a reasonable price. I can't say much more.

I think Jerry Miculek and Julie Golob have been excellent Ambassadors for S+W and shooting in general.

I think this move could go great for them. It might take some time.

I hope them the best!

[7.62 man]

How corrupt a government do we have that harasses a manufacturing business bad enough for them to shut everything down & move the business.

[OuTcAsT]

They will be in good company. Barrett and Beretta already have facilities here.
We have direct access to 5 major interstate highways. Great railroad access.
We are also a right-to-work State and, NO State income tax.
Housing is BOOMING here with more being built all the time and, still relatively inexpensive in East TN.
The cost of living is lower.
And, Tennessee has very few firearms restrictions.
Plus, I'm certain there are tax breaks and incentives being offered by the State.
It will be great to welcome them to the neighborhood !

[Lima Oscar 7]

kudos to Smith and Wesson management for looking ahead. They are future proofing their business.

[HiBC]

I've been putting off buying a Shield. I'm retired, not made of money and try to resist impulse purchases.
But for EDC, a Shield was on my list.
This move suggests availabilty could become an issue.

Found a Shield Plus,no safety 9mm under glass for a little too much money.

Negotiated it to just $25 too much money. Decided I'd rather pay $25 than drive across town again.

Scratch that off my bucket list

[TruthTellers]

As others have said, moving manufacturing production and all the machines (both production and inspection ones) a thousand miles away is not simple or cheap, nor is finding replacement workers, but when one of your most profitable products in the AR-15 is being banned from being manufactured you really don't have much of a choice, not unless you're willing to just accept money being taken away from you.

It also doesn't help that in the next couple years Mass minimum wage is moving to $15/hr. Now, most of the machine operators probably make that now, but secondary ops like assembly and polishing... they're $12-13/hour employees who will magically be getting a pay raise. S&W will not just be able to keep making money, but actually save some in labor by moving.

This partial relocation is just the beginning because once S&W gets set up in Tennessee for making AR's, they'll probably move the pistol production there too and after that it'll be the revolvers; all of this is going to take a good 10 to 20 years until completion and full relocation.

And after seeing NY state AG go after the NRA, gun companies in big blue progressive Democrat states like Massachusetts and Connecticut got quite the wake up call realizing that state governments will be used to go after them in an attempt to bankrupt them with lawsuits.

Watch Ruger over the next year or two pull their HQ out of Connecticut, that will be easy since they don't produce anything there, it's easy to pack up computers and leave.

What's not easy once a new production building is found or built is getting the workers with skills. While CNC has made things faster and easier to produce machined parts that doesn't mean there isn't a learning curve and you can just drop anyone into being a parts loader/machine operator; for a bright, young worker they can learn the job in a few months, for a crusty old dumb drunk it'll take him twice that to get up to speed and be able to make good parts consistently.

That's when they're being trained by current employees who know what they're doing, move operations to places people can't go and have soulless salary engineers who work 60 hrs a week doing the training and you'll be lucky if you can keep the operators for more than 3 months before they quit and get a better job.

That's another key factor with finding people: there are always better jobs available. It's not like the 60s, 70s, or 80s anymore where you could go work in manufacturing and make big bucks, everything is cut to the bone now and a race to the bottom. You may be able to find good people, but after a couple years they'll get the experience they need and move on to another job down the road that pays them 5 grand more a year and that's something S&W or any other gun company is going to pay because, while they're not union, every position in production pretty much has a top rate that once you hit the ceiling, no matter how good you are, you won't get paid.

This is the reason I've worked with multiple people who left Ruger: they went from making $11/hr to $14/hr overnight by taking a different job. It leads to a constant revolving door of production employees and while QC may reject batches of parts, management needs orders fulfilled and will use them so they can ship guns anyway.

These are problems that gun companies deal with now, throw in the issues of relocating and they become worse.

I wouldn't be buying any S&W AR's for a while.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by 7.62 man

How corrupt a government do we have that harasses a manufacturing business bad enough for them to shut everything down & move the business.

It's not so much corruption, but stupidity. Progressives don't see the forest thru the trees or the consequences of their actions, they see themselves as heroes saving the day fighting the big, evil gun company that makes products that kill people. The same goes for fossil fuels and the war on internal combustion engines and every industry that technology serves.

The end result is people lose jobs, they lose money, and they suffer because people in power who were programmed by college professors with no real world experience think they know it all and are like the Terminator in they absolutely will not stop until they achieve their goal.

After all, to make an omelet you gotta break a few eggs.

The move to TN is still the right move long term for S&W. There will be a lot of bumps in the road, but there are a lot of reasons why manufacturing as a whole is moving from the Northeast to the South and they go beyond just politics and state laws.

[5whiskey]

This is the reason I've worked with multiple people who left Ruger: they went from making $11/hr to $14/hr overnight by taking a different job. It leads to a constant revolving door of production employees and while QC may reject batches of parts, management needs orders fulfilled and will use them so they can ship guns anyway.

Pay, in the form of total compensation via bonuses, overtime, stock compensation, and benefits, isn’t the chief complaint at Ruger. At least not the Mayodan nc plant. Though to be fair their NC plant is (was anyway) in a very low cost of living area. The pay is usually thought of as at least satisfactory. It’s the tone-deafness of management at the plant that generate most complaints. That and the hours.

[TruthTellers]

Originally Posted by 5whiskey

Pay, in the form of total compensation via bonuses, overtime, stock compensation, and benefits, isn’t the chief complaint at Ruger. At least not the Mayodan nc plant. Though to be fair their NC plant is (was anyway) in a very low cost of living area. The pay is usually thought of as at least satisfactory. It’s the tone-deafness of management at the plant that generate most complaints. That and the hours.

IDK about the NC plant, I only know about the NH facility and I heard the complaints about management, but the bottom line as to why people stay and go always reverts back to money. The biggest complaint I heard was that management expected the employees to want to sit at the same machine making the same parts every day for 40 years and the employee would never grow or learn anything new and be able to move up and get a better wage.

I can't imagine being an operator working on the floor at a big gun company like S&W or Ruger, it's the smaller companies like Charter Arms and Kel-Tec where you're not treated like a number or a machine.

[5whiskey]

The biggest complaint I heard was that management expected the employees to want to sit at the same machine making the same parts every day for 40 years and the employee would never grow or learn anything new and be able to move up and get a better wage.

That is exactly the main complaint at the NC plant as well, which kind of pivots back to management tone-deafness. You were just more specific. Yes starting pay, and pay in general, is less a complaint at Ruger NC. But yes, the quoted message of sitting at the same mundane position doing the same mundane work for years is unrealistic. I mean how many revolver cylinders can you make in your life before you want to move to the frame machine and make an extra dollar an hour? Apparently their bonuses are decent, but the fact remains there has to be some way to advance eventually.

[7.62 man]

Originally Posted by 5whiskey

That is exactly the main complaint at the NC plant as well, which kind of pivots back to management tone-deafness. You were just more specific. Yes starting pay, and pay in general, is less a complaint at Ruger NC. But yes, the quoted message of sitting at the same mundane position doing the same mundane work for years is unrealistic. I mean how many revolver cylinders can you make in your life before you want to move to the frame machine and make an extra dollar an hour? Apparently their bonuses are decent, but the fact remains there has to be some way to advance eventually.

That's the biggest problem with factory work, is you do the same thing over & over. I just retired from a factory & there wasn't much advancement. Mostly because the more senior workers had the upper jobs & unless one retired, died or moved on you couldn't advance.
They hired young workers right out of high school & by the time they had 20 years in they were only like 38 years old so you were not going to move them out of the top positions.

[44 AMP]

I am of two minds about the idea, overall. I realize that many businesses promote advancement of their worker's skill and training, but I also can see the point of a company that hires you to do A job. One job, and expects you to do it day in day out for your paycheck.

I spent over 30 years in a union job where salary advancement was automatic with time, until you reached the top wage for your craft. If you wanted more money, you worked overtime, when/if available but beyond that, there was no other path to more income unless you left that job and got a different one.

Of course, that was in an earlier era where you didn't need a degree to earn a decent living...

which reminds me of an old joke about lean times and degrees,
someone with a scientific degree asks "why does that work?"
someone with an engineering degree asks "how do I make that work?"
and someone with a liberal arts degree asks "do you want fries with that?"
(unless they get a job in education or go into politics....)