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October 16, 2013, 08:11 PM | #51 | |
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I don't see why several of you are complaining about Abramski's sentence. He got 5 years probation. Montelongo got 3 1/2 years in prison.
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October 16, 2013, 08:36 PM | #52 | |
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As I understand it, if it became an issue, your defense would be that you simply bought it with the intent to resell it. That is legal as long as you weren't making a habit of buying and reselling guns (you'd need an FFL to continually engage in buying and reselling guns) and as long as he hadn't asked you to buy it on his behalf (then it would be a straw purchase).
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October 16, 2013, 08:41 PM | #53 | |
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We won't fully enforce the law for people who do real harm, but we'll prosecute a man on malum prohibitum? Sorry, but I can't get behind that.
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October 17, 2013, 10:13 AM | #54 |
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My question is why didn't dad by the gun for himself to start with? Why did son buy the gun then sell to dad?
Doesn't make sense (something fishy going on) and opened one hell of a can of worms. Especially after dad was able to pass the background check. Go figure.
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October 17, 2013, 10:29 AM | #55 | |
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October 17, 2013, 10:33 AM | #56 | |
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October 17, 2013, 10:49 AM | #57 | |
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October 17, 2013, 11:48 AM | #58 | ||
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For those interested, SCOTUSblog has the complete filings for cert: Abramski v. United States : SCOTUSblog
Of interest is the questions the petitioner wants the Court to address (link given in the OP): Quote:
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The petitioners reply: Reply of petitioner Bruce James Abramski, Jr. filed. All of that aside, what question(s) did the Court actually decide to answer (always in doubt until orders come out, as the Court has great latitude to rephrase the questions to their liking)? The answer (which is here) is that the Court will answer the questions as the petitioner has asked, in the exact manner asked. While this case is only peripherally about the 2A, it will be an interesting case to follow, as it can clear up much of the "straw purchase" arguments we have. |
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October 17, 2013, 10:20 PM | #59 | |
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November 8, 2013, 10:51 AM | #60 |
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Joe Waldron, pro gun debater, tells me that few crime guns come from gunshows, but many crime guns come from straw man purchases. He adds that after the crime, the strawman buyer is almost never prosecuted. He says a typical situation is a convicted felon has his girl friend buy the gun. The prosecutor does not want to take some welfare mom to trial.
So I pondered this until I realized that it would be very hard to prosecute a strawman if there is no paper trail. The girl friend could simply say she later sold it to her boy friend, or he took it without asking, etc. All this must leave prosecutors looking hard for a straw man case with a paper trail. And then on November 15, 2009 -- Alvarez sends Abramski a check for $400 with "Glock 19" in the memo line.
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November 8, 2013, 12:04 PM | #61 | |
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So it looks like at least some such cases do get prosecuted.
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November 8, 2013, 11:15 PM | #62 |
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I recall a case some time ago where women druggie bought a gun for her dealer. The judge let her off with probation so she could care for her children.
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January 22, 2014, 10:16 AM | #63 |
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Oral argument is this morning. ScotusBlog has an analysis at http://www.scotusblog.com/2014/01/ar...on-gun-buyers/. I'm not sure if they'll analyze the oral argument or not. It seems they do not always do so.
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January 22, 2014, 05:22 PM | #64 |
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A good (and unbiased) recap of the oral argument can be found here: http://www.scotusblog.com/2014/01/ar...s-the-problem/
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January 22, 2014, 05:32 PM | #65 | |
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From the link that Armorer-at-Law posted:
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January 22, 2014, 06:16 PM | #66 |
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And here is a link to the actual oral argument transcript: http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arg...-1493_2135.pdf
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January 22, 2014, 09:30 PM | #67 |
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I don't see that this is a straw purchase case because he wasn't buying for a prohibited person. They got him for lying on form 4473, they can prove that he only bought the gun for his father.
Form 4473 says "I understand that answering "yes" to question 11.a. if I am not the actual buyer is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law, and may also violate State and/or local law." Dude is toasted. If you buy a gun as a gift for someone else and legally transfer it into their name for no money, that also is a violation of what you are signing on form 4473 question 11.a. More proof that telling the truth can get you in trouble.
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January 22, 2014, 09:50 PM | #68 | |||
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Quote:
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January 22, 2014, 10:08 PM | #69 |
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You are correct Frank.
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January 23, 2014, 12:06 AM | #70 |
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I quickly ran through the transcript. It is often a bad idea to guess the justices' votes based on their questions but I'll venture a guess or two. I think Kagan and Breyer are in favor of the government with Sotomayer and Alito leaning that direction. There's an outside chance Breyer might go with a lenity argument (interpreting a criminal statute in favor of the defendant if ambiguous). Scalia is solidly on the side of defendant with Roberts probably also there. Kennedy seemed to be leaning that direction. Thomas did not ask questions and I didn't get a read on Ginsburg.
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January 23, 2014, 12:20 AM | #71 |
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Based on KyJim's handicapping I'm not going to be making any bets on how this turns out.
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January 23, 2014, 01:36 AM | #72 | |
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Frank is correct on the law as it stands. We've been over this in other threads. It's a bad law, but is it unconstitutional? That's the question.
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That worries me more than Scalia's vagueness in Heller.
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January 23, 2014, 06:09 AM | #73 |
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Roberts can speak for Roberts, but judges have a tendency to think for themselves (especially the Supremes). And they'll sometimes vote the way they want to vote even when it's clearly wrong. (If not for that, Heller and McDonald should both have been 9-0 votes.)
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January 23, 2014, 07:05 AM | #74 |
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On FOX this morning this was discussed with Judge Napolitano and both he and Steve neglected to bring up the issue of the money time line that exchanged hands. Hearing this FOX has dropped the ball. From what I have read here it seems that is the heart of this whole case the money time line and purchase time line.
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January 24, 2014, 09:30 AM | #75 |
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The real question, as I see it, is whether or not the ATF can changes the rules and make something criminal when it is not given that authority within the statute at issue.
That goes to the heart of Form 4473, question 11.a. If the Justices believe that such a power is not within the law, as written, then the case should never have been brought and form 4473 will have to be changed. It is instructive that from 1968 until 1994, this Government viewed the entire thing in the manner the petitioner is requesting. It was only in the last 20 years, that this ATF changed how things should work. |
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