Caseless cartridges:a pratical reality?

[ChrisMkIV]

I picked up an old phone book sized reloading
manual at a garage sale for 1.00

It was published in 1993, and in the very back, it had some odds and ends, general fps, powder selection, primer selection etc.

It also had a few pages on "caseless" cartriges, meaning no brass or other hard case for a componet, just a single section that feeds into your rifle.

Has anyone seen or heard anything on this? consitering it was 1993, I don't think the idea ever cought on did it?

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"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, becuse the whole body of the people are armed"
Noah Webster

[Hal]

Chris,
The idea predates '93 by a couple of decades. I first read about caseless experiments in the late '70's. Even then, the idea was referred to as caseless revisited. Moisture and damage from handling are still the 2 main deterrents from what I've read. The topic pops up here from time to time.
Some great ideas just never catch on. Who knows why? I look at the current .357Sig(.355 for you purists)in pretty much the same light. Bottlenose pistol rounds just never caught on. Maybe the .357Sig will be different, but who knows for sure.
Caseless ammo is like smart guns, bottlenose psitol rounds, super duper magnums (.41, 9mm and .45win). Real good ideas that just never go anywhere.

*note. Please take no offence at the super duper magnum and .357sig. I am a huge fan of the .41, the 9mm and the .45Win as well as the .357Sig. I also am a fan of the Beta format over the VHS, and the Mac over the IBM. In the case of the .41Mag, it is so close to a .44mag, but offers so many advantages, you just gotta wonder why it never caught on.

[El Rojo]

Is a "smart gun" really a good idea? I find "smart guns" fall into the same catagory as Communism. Lots of liberals think it is idealy a really good system that would save numerous lives and help end suffering and poverty forever. The problem is that is in an ideal world. When you try those systems out in the real world, they don't work worth a crap. So smart guns a good idea? A good idea maybe, a practical and workable solution? No.

[beemerb]

Caseless ammo has been around for many years.The first I know about is the volcanic arms in the mid early 1800's.H&K has rifle perfected that uses caseless ammo.I THINK the model is G 11.Was going to be purchased by the German military but due to the rejoining of east and west Germany with the econamic problems that went with it the purchases never came about.
PS The volcanic arms actions where used by winchester levers.Volcanic arms where lever action rifles and pistols.Cartridge was animic and not dependable.
Hope this answers some of your questions.

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beemerb
We have a criminal jury system which is superior to any in the world;
and its efficiency is only marred by the difficulty of finding twelve men
every day who don't know anything and can't read.
-Mark Twain

If you believe HCI (and who doesn't? ), caseless ammunition is the ammunition of choice for criminals, because it doesn't leave behind a case for evidence (don't tell them about revolvers ).

[This message has been edited by Jeff, CA (edited May 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Jeff, CA (edited May 18, 2000).]

[Hal]

El Rojo,
Actually, I agree with you. In concept, a smart gun, if it is the natural evolution of technology, is a great idea. Something along the lines of say the present day transfer bar system is such an example. Thank God our side thought that up! If it were up to them to develop a transfer bar system, I shudder to think wht it would have been.That thing being foisted on the consumer now, is just a worthless piece of feel good techno whiz, that is far more dangerous than useful. The big push is to solve a nonexistant problem, not create a tecnologicly better product. So yes, I think a smart gun is a good idea, but my idea of smart is a world different than theirs. On a defensive weapon, simple is best. On a target gun, smart isn't really too bad an idea. On a beginners or training type gun, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. The problem is they want it on everything.

Ok, here's a little different slant. I have my guns locked in a safe. With no kids around, and little to zero chance that my guns will be mishandled, from a safety standpoint a safe seems a waste of money. The guns in the safe will be of little to no use locked inside if I need them in a hurry, or in another part of the house. I have a safe because it affords a bit of extra security against someone breaking in and stealing them. I still keep(not saying how many ) outside the safe where we can reach it(them) if needed. I see a smart gun in much the same way. It isn't for everyone, and it certainly isn't for a defensive weapon. For some applications it does make sense.

Cancell that thought. Better yet, cancell the "smart gun defence". Something bothered me about the term. I finally put my finger on it. The implication is that smart gun = stupid owner. Bad karma.


[This message has been edited by RAE (edited May 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by RAE (edited May 19, 2000).]

[Bud Helms]

ChrisMkIV,

A search in "Art of the Rifle" forum came up with these two articles of interest:

Barrel Harmonics and HK. You have to read down into the Barrel Harmonics thread to get to the caseless ammo part, but a lot of questions are answered.



[This message has been edited by sensop (edited May 18, 2000).]

[ChrisMkIV]

I guess good ideas don't catch on sometimes.

SENSOP-thanks for the links

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"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword, becuse the whole body of the people are armed"
Noah Webster