Reloading Safety House Explosion

[Mr.RevolverGuy]

Man was reloading ammunition prior to Seffner house explosion, fire rescue says | WFLA

Let's discuss this please but I do not know where to start as I am still picking my mouth up off the floor. I have neighbors who live in the area and they were all calling me tonight. There is a small local channel that supposedly interviewed this guy at the hospital and he reported there was no open flames, no gas or gas fumes just all of a sudden a large explosion.

Wow lost for words, I think it is time to talk safety again.

I know it would be speculation on our part but how does something like this happen? We have all seen things like this in the past.

[Mycin]

Maybe a jar of loose primers? Primer tube detonation? Gun powder doesn't just explode. AFAIK, even a sealed plastic jug of powder wouldn't really explode, would it? Flash fire, maybe, if punctured by flying bits of primer explosion, or something, but would the plastic jug hold enough pressure to "explode"? There's more to this story that we're not being told.

[nhyrum]

I'm thinking it was probably something set off by a primer detonating. Smokeless isn't as static sensitive as black so I don't think it was a stray spark. But I don't really like speculating on what happened, but talking about how we can learn from what we do know about the incident. This pairs pretty well with a recent thread I started about those of us who aren't blessed to reload in heated and insulated spaces, and trying to figure out a safe way to do so

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[Shadow9mm]

There are far few details in this article to make too much of a guess to the cause.

What we do know. Powder does not explode, it burns quickly. It can cause an explosion if contained in a strong pressure vessel. But you have to have something to ignite the powder. Could have been any number of things. Powder and primers in a heavy container that was dropped could do it.

Not casting aspersions, just a reminder. No heavy sealed containers for powder or primers. Store them separately. I like plastic ammo cans, while sealed its only lightly,, they do not hold pressure well at all. But there are better methods.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by Mycin

Maybe a jar of loose primers? Primer tube detonation? Gun powder doesn't just explode. AFAIK, even a sealed plastic jug of powder wouldn't really explode, would it? Flash fire, maybe, if punctured by flying bits of primer explosion, or something, but would the plastic jug hold enough pressure to "explode"? There's more to this story that we're not being told.

Too much damage blew a wall out, powder in a heavy sealed container is my guess. How it was set off is the question.

[Mycin]

Question: How about a sheet-metal cabinet with latching sheet-metal doors? A friend has his powder in such a cabinet. Is he asking for trouble?

I'm talking thin sheet metal, like you might pick up at Office Depot for storing office supplies.

[Pathfinder45]

It does seem kinda fishy..... I'm not saying it's fake news, but I'm concerned that stories like this could lead to more regulations that can effectively ban reloading.

[higgite]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder45

It does seem kinda fishy..... I'm not saying it's fake news, but I'm concerned that stories like this could lead to more regulations that can effectively ban reloading.

Yeah, maybe we shouldn't publicize local stories like this one. Some HOAs, city councils, county boards, etc., would drool over this story.

[nhyrum]

Originally Posted by Mycin

Question: How about a sheet-metal cabinet with latching sheet-metal doors? A friend has his powder in such a cabinet. Is he asking for trouble?

I'm talking thin sheet metal, like you might pick up at Office Depot for storing office supplies.

Those are generally fine. You just don't want whatever it's in to contain pressure and become a bomb. I've heard of people using old fridges/freezers that sing 6 work and/or aren't plugged in. The magnet on the door helps seal out moisture, but supposedly (and makes sense to me) will not hold the door tight enough closed to let enough pressure to build to become dangerous.

Faulty wiring or worn out switches/relays could also cause a spark.

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[TJB101]

I keep the bulk of my powders and primers together in a closed (unlocked) cabinet in an attached, climate controlled garage. ( 20 lbs / 15k) I have about 1/2 dozen go-to 1 powder jugs in a 1” thick wooden box (unlocked) by my bench.

Question: should primers and powders be stored in separate cabinets?

[DaleA]

I think this has been posted before but I can't find it so I'm posting it again.
It is a LOT of powder being burned by the Army.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ske8YmHrt8w

People more knowledgeable than me can chime in on whether or not 6 pounds of gun powder could blow up a house like the article says.

We've had houses blow up in the Twin Cites (MN) before but it's a gas (natural gas for heating, cooking, hot water, clothes dryers) thing. Although I do remember a report of an electric water heater lauching itself out of some poor guys basement thru the floor, roof and into the yard.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

What we do know. Powder does not explode, it burns quickly. It can cause an explosion if contained in a strong pressure vessel. But you have to have something to ignite the powder.

^^^ To reiterate: smokeless powder is a propellant, not an explosive. It doesn't explode, it burns rapidly. Unless the guy was loading pipe bombs, I can't understand how even six pounds of smokeless powder could blow up a house. I haven't seen gunpowder in steel cans for a very long time, and even the steel cans it used to come in were light gauge metal, not pressure vessels. The plastic that powders come in today won't contain enough pressure to create a bomb.

I think a lot more information is needed to explain this one.

[higgite]

It sure looks like a big explosion for a normal stash of powder and primers unless the guy had commercial quantities. Neighbors said they could smell gunpowder. Does meth smell like gunpowder?

[Unclenick]

Modern smokeless wouldn't blow up so much as swoosh up from spark ignition, but six pounds of black powder could pop some windows and do some damage. Neighbors claiming to smell gunpowder would probably be familiar with the smell of black powder from fireworks, while many would be less familiar with the scent of smokeless powder. If the commenting neighbors actually were familiar with the smell of smokeless powder from military service, then they could mistake the smell of exploding solvent vapors for that. So I'm going to guess we either had a CAS reloader here or the meth cooker suggested earlier.

I seldom shoot BP, and then just in cap-and-ball or a muzzleloader, so I'm not familiar with all current practices with it, but I do not recall seeing modern containers of more than 1 lb of it in the general marketplace. But maybe I'm just missing something. The only 6 lb containers I know existed at one time were the old DuPont 6 lb plated steel cans. One of those could certainly get rusty enough that the plating is gone, producing a small hazard of a spark occurring screwing the lid on and off. But it the odds are small.

Too little information, as mentioned.

[Bob Willman]

We had a house fire in 1995. There was 60 pounds of gunpowder in the basement in a wood cabinet which, according to the fire marshal, was several feet away from where the fire started. There was no explosion. The 1 lb metal cans with soldered seams were split open. The shelves in the wood cabinet were still in place as were the doors.
Six pounds of smokeless powder would have been a very hot fire for probably much less than a minute, in my opinion.

[Mr.RevolverGuy]

I debated on if I should post or not. But I know this is NOT fake news this is real again relatives that have put their eyes on this. It did happen BUT WHY is unknown.

My intent was to ask for maybe you experts or specialist to come along and say this is how it happened and how we protect against this happening.

[Shadow9mm]

Originally Posted by higgite

It sure looks like a big explosion for a normal stash of powder and primers unless the guy had commercial quantities. Neighbors said they could smell gunpowder. Does meth smell like gunpowder?

Meth does not smell like gunpowder. I work in law enforcement. It has a distinct harsh chemical smell. Not as strong as Marijuana. People that use meth smell like it. Not from the fumes or smoke. But as it leaches back out their pores.

Also, my gun shop regularly has 6lb jugs.

[higgite]

Originally Posted by Shadow9mm

Meth does not smell like gunpowder. I work in law enforcement. It has a distinct harsh chemical smell. Not as strong as Marijuana. People that use meth smell like it. Not from the fumes or smoke. But as it leaches back out their pores.

Also, my gun shop regularly has 6lb jugs.

There is obviously a lot of impact damage to the house and garage, but I don’t see much if any fire damage in the video. Would 6 pounds of powder “explode” without causing a fire? If a meth lab is out of the question, I’m leaning towards Unclenick’s suggested possibility of black powder being involved. Or the still overheated.

[HiBC]

I just don't buy the story.
Its the sort of story an anti-gun media would exploit,but its speculation and fear. A lot of unknown.
Whether it was 6 lbs or 200 lbs, it would make a spectacular fire,they may have been burned to dust,but unless the combustion is inside a confined space,like a gun safe,its not going to explode.
Its not so different than a can of gasoline.The propane jug for your gas grill is ,IMO,more dangerous than an 8 lb jug of smokeless powder.

Natural gas can make a building blow up like a bomb. Back in the 70's or 80's,a downtown redevelopment project in Ft Collins,CO blew up the Elks Club and several businesses downtown. My Mom's house was 2 miles away,and insulation and stationary rained down on her yard.

A natural gas explosion can coincidentally occur while a man is reloading.
Its cooling off outside. Folks turn on the heat this time of year.
We have an active thread here at TFL by a Gentleman asking about heating his reloading area. Its hunting season reloading time . Long unused heating appliances are getting lit up.

But that story does not sell as well as a gun related disaster. "Never let a crisis go to waste"

The anti gunners are dancing with glee. They have ammo up to a buck a round,and now they have an excuse to draft codes,regs,and prohibitions about "hoards of explosives " that the crazed people who are active at school board meetings are storing with their cases of Spam

Misinformation is supercharged by ignorance

[44 AMP]

I know it would be speculation on our part but how does something like this happen?

it happens when a reporter needs more information than they have and reports people's comments as fact when they are not, verified facts.

Though the author did have the sense to use the word "apparently".

One problem is that a statement from someone in "Fire and Rescue" is the same as a statement from someone in a police dept. Its just somebody's opinion, and NOT an official finding resulting from an actual investigation.

Might be true, but can't be counted on as true, because often it isn't.

Correlation is NOT causation. No question the powder was there, and got blown up along with the rest of the stuff in the house. Probably at least some if not most of it burned (hence the smell neighbors reported) but I'd need to see a detailed report by qualified forensic professionals stating that SMOKELESS powder was the cause of the explosion before I would accept that, and even then I would tend to have doubts.

Smokeless powder is a flammable solid, it is NOT an explosive. It is damn difficult to get an explosion using smokeless powder.

Black powder, on the other hand, IS an explosive, and has been known to detonate just because it felt like it (or so it seems). Static electricity and even percussion (being struck) has been known to detonate black powder, though it is mostly more stable than that, such things have happened.

which is why powder is never stored in strong tightly sealed containers.

industrial "Flam Cabinets" are fairly heavy gauge steel and have strongly fastening doors that are fairly well sealed when closed. But the cabinets have "blow out" plugs (similar to the freeze plugs in an engine block) which will pop at fairly low pressure and vent the cabinet well before the pressure can reach a level to blow up the cabinet. Also, when properly installed, they are electrically grounded.

I have no idea what caused the explosion, but while smokeless powder was involved (along with everything else in the house) I really, really doubt it was the cause.

gas waterheater?? Stove?? solvent/paint fumes?? lots of things are possible, all we know for sure is that there was powder present and the guy was reloading at the time of the explosion.

Maybe he did something to cause it. Maybe he didn't. WE DON'T KNOW.

If he'd been having a beer on his back porch when things blew up, the press might report alcohol was involved, and the neighbors might smell that, too...

[TX Nimrod]

I too have a lot of trouble with the story. Over the years I’ve been directly involved in three different events which became TV news stories. I knew what the facts were in each case, but after viewing the broadcasts the “facts” were so distorted that I had to wonder if the respective reporters even talked to any witnesses.

Earlier this summer a local print shop suffered a gas explosion, which pretty much destroyed the end of the strip mall, see the pic below. There were several employees in the shop when the explosion occurred, so it is possible to happen without anyone present noticing in time. My money would be on a gas explosion….except a “neighbor” stated that the neighborhood had no gas service. But isn’t propane a flammable gas? Some people just don’t think…

[pete2]

Bull! Natural gas or even gasoline but no way it was smokeless powder!

[Unclenick]

Yes, reporting is often an act of presenting speculation as fact. That's why I suggested maybe it was black powder, even though the story said smokeless. That's the kind of detail often got wrong.

[Colorado Redneck]

It seems unlikely a few pounds of smokeless powder would create a blast that resulted in that much damage. The guy is badly injured and had his brains scrambled, so his statements may be a tad off. A few years ago, there was a video created by firefighters that was a demonstration of a large fire with bunches of primers, powder and ammo in a structure (semi-trailer box IIRC). There was no explosion, just a hot fire. The ammo fired, but bullets weren't shot out like movies portray. The purpose was to educate firefighters about the reality of a gun shop fire. I shared it with friends, and likely found it here in the forums. After seeing that video I am very doubtful that a few pounds of powder was the only substance that blew up.

[higgite]

Originally Posted by Colorado Redneck

It seems unlikely a few pounds of smokeless powder would create a blast that resulted in that much damage. The guy is badly injured and had his brains scrambled, so his statements may be a tad off.

Could also be that reloading was the first "innocent" excuse that came to mind. It would be interesting to know what really happened, but we will probably never hear the straight scoop.