Tapping shotgun for rail

[Lhigginsqrb]

Any ideas on where to start looking for the service? I’ve called around several places. At one point Gander Mountain was offering it but they shut down last time I checked.

I have a new o/u coming and I want to add rails. I did a lot of research and there isn’t a gun on the market that has all the features I want. So I bought the closest thing I could find but now I need to add these rails.

My Other gun has a rail on the receiver. I don’t think that’s gonna work for the situation. I have to tap the barrel which is trickier because of the pressure stuff. I’m not sure if they can tap the vent rail affectively or not.

I’m also considering a small rail on the underside of the barrel toward the front. Not sure about that one. If possible I want to put two sets of optics on this gun. It’s going to have a reflex site possibly holographic. Also possibly a side scope. I’m not sure how workable that is I’ve seen it done on AR‘s.

[seagiant]

Hi,
I would think any local Gunsmith could do it?

You might go over to "Trapshooters" Forum and ask, as everything there is, "Shotgun"!

https://www.trapshooters.com/

[Don Fischer]

Originally Posted by Lhigginsqrb

Any ideas on where to start looking for the service? I’ve called around several places. At one point Gander Mountain was offering it but they shut down last time I checked.

I have a new o/u coming and I want to add rails. I did a lot of research and there isn’t a gun on the market that has all the features I want. So I bought the closest thing I could find but now I need to add these rails.

My Other gun has a rail on the receiver. I don’t think that’s gonna work for the situation. I have to tap the barrel which is trickier because of the pressure stuff. I’m not sure if they can tap the vent rail affectively or not.

I’m also considering a small rail on the underside of the barrel toward the front. Not sure about that one. If possible I want to put two sets of optics on this gun. It’s going to have a reflex site possibly holographic. Also possibly a side scope. I’m not sure how workable that is I’ve seen it done on AR‘s.

This supposed to be the gotcha of the day? Your putting a scope on both barrels of an O/U? Where do these ideas come from?

[Lhigginsqrb]

That’s not what I said.

My friend has an ar set up with a reflex site and a scope. So he can shoot near and far.

I’m trying to apply this to the shotgun. I see short fast shots at point blank out to 40 yards. Occasionally I have a long still shot out further.

[FITASC]

Are you talking about shooting shot or slugs? Are you using it like a rifle or on clays/birds?

[Lhigginsqrb]

Here’s where it gets interesting. I have two barrels with two different chokes. I’m trying to push the limits of what a gun can do range wise. I want to have a three-quarter to 1 ounce shot in one barrel with a modified or looser choke. Went hunting rabbits in the brush. I want to load up these 3 1/2 inch Rounds with a super full and number 4 shot for the longest shot I will take. I know they can take one and a half ounces but I think there is a 2 ounce recipe somewhere. I’m going to have to play with the patterning but the idea is a still shot Way out there with accuracy mimicking 22 mag. Normally we have to take our long shots with a rifle when the leaves are off. I’m going to adapt all this stuff as I go I’m just thinking at this point. Honestly if I get an expensive holographic site I probably won’t need the scope. The moa on those are pretty tight. I doubt the scope of work so good because when you look down it you you have a hard time finding your target. I still may mess with it a little though to see how it works. We only use scopes on the 22 mag. It has a elevated scope mount though so I can use the iron sites to get in the vicinity of the target first.

[FITASC]

1oz of shot will kill a rabbit far enough without the need for a retina detaching 2oz load.

[Lhigginsqrb]

Your probably right. I’ve killed them in the 80 yard range with 1.25 oz. 1 oz is too much when they’re practically underfoot which is 30 percent of my shots roughly. that shot is meant for squirrels mostly. I’m not saying it’s practical. I want to push the absolute limit of how far a person can make a clean kill. I think drop starts factoring in at that point too. I’m an engineer if that explains anything.

[FITASC]

Choke, not payload, will determine how well your pattern performs at distance.

[Lhigginsqrb]

I slightly disagree with that. For example if I shoot a loose choke let’s say a modified, there is a range for which that pattern is perfect. Some distance at which the shot density is ideal and it covers a broad area. Ideal Shot density may vary depending on what your doing. Don’t get me wrong there are a ton of variables here and every situation has a different answer.

So that same choke past the upper limit of the range I mentioned above Becomes a problem. The shot gets spread out too far to consistently hit the target. In that situation you would want to go to a tighter choke normally. I believe that the range using that same choke can be extended by adding additional shot. 2 ounces is excessive and I’m wondering if the loss of velocity may factor in ultimately making the load sub optimum. There’s probably a sweet spot for each situation.

So what I’m saying mostly is on the extreme limit of let’s say a super full choke adding that extra shot should extend the range. I could be wrong but I’m gonna try it and see what happens. Mostly I just need larger patterning targets. I’m still trying to determine all of the Ranges mentioned above for each choke and load.

[tango1niner]

Um...

Point blank = the FARTHEST distance at which you can hit the target without holding over it.

[FITASC]

https://www.briley.com/c-461-sporting-clays-chart.aspx

https://www.briley.com/c-449-hunting...endations.aspx

Look up Gil and Vicki Ash; they did extensive pattern testing with chokes
It isn't the amount if shot, it is the choke constriction that patterns best in your gun.
BTW, a Mod choke is not a loose choke, compared to a skeet, cylinder or even an IC

[44 AMP]

I have to tap the barrel which is trickier because of the pressure stuff. I’m not sure if they can tap the vent rail affectively or not.

First off, lets be clear on terms, a rail is for mounting something, a rib is a solid surface to sight along. A solid rib means just that and is in full contact with the barrel along its entire length. A Ventilated rib means the rib stands a bit above the barrel on several "legs" and only those are in contact with the barrel, the rest of the length is open air space, which promotes cooling, and also looks good.

Generally speaking shotgun barrels are THIN compared to rifles and pistols. VERY THIN. Enough to safely handle shotgun pressures but nothing close to the thick barrel of a rifle or pistol.

And, that's your big problem with tapping the barrel. Its not so much a pressure issue (though that does need to be taken into consideration) but its because the metal of the barrel is so thin you can't drill and tap deeply enough for the screw threads to get a adequate grip, without drilling through the barrel, and that's a bad thing.

you might be able to mount a rail, but the "hold" of the screws will be very iffy, and anything you put on that rail will make that worse during recoil, very likely stripping our the screws. Any kind of scope or dot sight will "torque" during recoil putting strain on its mount and while on rifles and pistols its not an issue because of the location of the mount (receiver, generally or an a barrel thick enough hold the screws well) on a thin shotgun barrel its simply something very unlikely to work well.

Sighting ribs (that support nothing) are not screwed to the barrels, they are welded/brazed (silver soldered usually) on, not fastened on with screws. There's a reason for that.

The only place you find threads into a shotgun barrel is the bead sight (small and light) and internal choke tubes, where the threads are long (several times longer than the barrel is thick) and all the pressure and recoil forces are not acting to twist a scope or dot sight off its mount.

So, mounting a rib or even a rail on a shotgun barrel with screws alone possible but not the best method.

Putting anything with any weight on that rail, BAD IDEA.

but the idea is a still shot Way out there with accuracy mimicking 22 mag.

Sorry, but this is not happening. Energy possibly can match but accuracy simply will not. And, its not a matter of shot charge weight.

You are comparing apples and watermelons or something even further dissimilar. Look at what you are shooting from your shotgun. It's a mass of round pellets, not an aerodynamically shaped bullet and NOT spun by rifling to keep it flying straight to target.

next point is that useful range is determined not just by the power of the load but also by the shot size of the pellets and the pattern density.

Small shot loses speed faster. Bigger, heavier shot go farther. BUT, all of them spread out as they go down range.

The point of a pattern is so that there are enough pellets close enough together at a given distance to strike the vitals of the game and humanely dispatch it. The greater the range the fewer pellets are likely to be "in the right place" and the greater the likelihood of a wounded animal or a complete miss.

You WILL NOT get rifle accuracy from a smoothbore shotgun, no matter what choke it uses. Full and extra full chokes keep the pattern density together further, extending useable range not actual range, and at the cost of covering a smaller area of space at every range. Not a huge deal for bunnies, but important when wingshooting.

A heavier shot charge does not extend the range, what it does is put more shot in the air. And there's issues with that, as well.

Consider this, the bore size is a fixed constant. SO increasing the shot charge weight means that the shot column must get LONGER. Since your target is in a single plane compared to the shot string that means most of the shot arrives AFTER the leading pellets have struck and done their job.
Doing very little useful and possibly being overly destructive of game meat.

Assuming you're pretty new to all this, your questions are reasonable, but some of your assumptions are flawed.

Hope this helps and gives you some new things to consider.

[4V50 Gary]

I would consider soldering the mounting rib/picatinny rail instead of tapping and already thin barrel.

[Lhigginsqrb]

That’s an idea. I’m not sure the solder would endure my field use though.

If my logic is totally flawed so is every major shotshell manufacturers. They market those heavier payload cartridges for use at longer ranges.

I’ve read about the shot column issue. It matter a lot with birds. Should be a non issue with a still target on my long shot. At least that’s the hope.

And the shot size is a good point I didn’t mention. I’ve went from number 6 to number 5 for all my shots except the very close ones. I may experiment with fours or threes for these crazy loads. It might make more sense if I mention that. Because you have less pellets per ounce. Anyway I havent patterned these or even made them. I’ll try to take some pictures. The bottom line for me is if it drops the animal.

[FITASC]

If you want long distance, you'll be looking for #2 or larger

[4V50 Gary]

Double barrel shotguns and their rib are soldered togethered. Use the right solder.

[44 AMP]

They market those heavier payload cartridges for use at longer ranges.

Yep, that's what they market them for. Now, take a look at what size shot they put in those heavier payload cartridges. Specifically the ones you are looking at. Anything smaller than #6?

Which do you think will carry farther, 2oz of #2 shot or 2oz of #8 shot?

Also consider that with a fixed max allowable pressure the heavier the payload the slower it moves. And the slower it moves the longer it takes to reach a given distance and therefore the longer the pull of gravity acts on it. (drop)

I don't know how much these factors matter in a specific situation, but I do know that they are factors that are taken into consideration when developing ammunition.

[Lhigginsqrb]

I’ve been playing with these loads on and off for years. I agree with most of what’s been stated. The heavier pellets help a lot. Especially when leaf cover is involved.

I’ll look into the soldier idea. I’m considering creating something of my own to accommodate the rail if needed. Not my first choice but I could fabricate a clamp modeled after some online products. That coupled with vent rib taps should do the job. I’m still looking to see if a product exists so I don’t have to put the effort in.

[44 AMP]

I’ll look into the soldier idea.

If you do, look into it enough to understand that "Sliver Solder" as used on firearms is NOT the same as the "solder" used on wires, circuit boards of some plumbing.

The overall process is similar but the materials used, the level of heat involved, and specific method is very different. Very different.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Wow!

Well, I see,"Take it to a good Gunsmith", didn't work!!! Ha!

[Lhigginsqrb]

I’ve not found any gunsmiths in my area who tap guns. This one they most likely won’t touch for liability reasons if I want the barrel tapped.

My ffl guy let his license lapse. So no gun yet. I did find some aftermarket fiber optics to try for this season. I’m going to revisit this in the spring I think. Having the gun in hand is going to help.

[Blindstitch]

Maybe I missed this but what gun are you tapping? It helps to start out with that so we don't have to guess what your doing or if someone makes a product like what you want.

Second I think you need to hit up a shotgun shell reloading guide. Muzzle velocity at the muzzle is one thing. I'm a fan of 1550 for most loads but the farther it gets out there the slower the bb is traveling. Like reloading rifle a big payload is pushed slower. I saw you're talking about 3 1/2 inch mags so there's got to be a way you can load them 1-1.25 ounces and crank up the speed.

In my pheasant gun using 3 inch winchester super x 1550 #4's i've been able to take birds out to 50 yards but I run a modified choke in my first barrel and full (rated for steel) in the second. This is a steel load since waterfowl can be present and why pass up a shot.

This picture doesn't reflect your situations but it shows what's basically going on.

Of course with distance also come drop which is an whole other group of shenanigans.

[4V50 Gary]

How about brazing?

[Lhigginsqrb]

Brazing would be interesting.

That data is exactly what I’m thinking. Were doing the same thing. I’m actually looking at buying bismuth shot. Steel seems to be a pretty big handicap. The way we hunt waterfowl we often get long shots.

What would you say is the limit on range for Steel with a full or super full?