*More* New Gun Problems

TheGoldenState · February 18, 2013, 03:03 PM

Second time out shooting my new Smith & Wesson M&P 9

I did a previous post on the slide stop not staying down w/o constant pressure.

Now, the gun is averaging 3-4 Keyholes per 10-12 shots. Looks like vertical hour glasses. Winchester 9mm ammo.

No failures of any type.

The below target has keyholes but they're almost impossible to see in the picture. Gun & mag for size/group reference. 5, 10, 25 yards.

I'll be calling Smith, RM thinks rate of twist could be apart of the issue. Anyone experience this with their M&P ???

SoilworK777 · February 18, 2013, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Second time out shooting my new Smith & Wesson M&P .40

I did a previous post on the slide stop not staying down w/o constant pressure.

Now, the gun is averaging 3-4 Keyholes per 10-12 shots. Looks like vertical hour glasses. Winchester 9mm ammo.

Is it .40 or 9mm? I've read that the lock up on some of the 9's releases early and causes accuracy issues.

ShootingNut · February 18, 2013, 03:57 PM

"Second time out shooting my new Smith & Wesson M&P .40"
"Winchester 9mm ammo"
There's your problem!

jbrown27 · February 18, 2013, 04:00 PM

Uhhh! Hope the 9mm part was a typo if not there's you're problem.

Skadoosh · February 18, 2013, 04:00 PM

...doh!

DATL · February 18, 2013, 04:27 PM

LOL

Patriot328 · February 18, 2013, 04:31 PM

Funny stuff

spacecoast · February 18, 2013, 04:34 PM

Another plus for revolvers... incorrect ammo choices are more obvious.

Let's hope it was just a typo, I suspect that is the case.

TheGoldenState · February 18, 2013, 05:17 PM

YES……NEW 9

I have the .40, too.

Now….on to the issue

btw….is the pic showing up? It did for me earlier, not now.

CurlyQ.Howard · February 18, 2013, 05:22 PM

No photo available for me to see - just a ? mark.

TheGoldenState · February 19, 2013, 12:56 AM

^^ not sure why its not appearing.

The issue, key-holing, is what is shows though.

TheGoldenState · February 21, 2013, 07:49 PM

Almost at minute 35 on the S&W customer suport center line.

"All of our representatives are currently assisting other customers, please remain on the line…"

:::::

::

Update: Got through, talked to a great customer service rep. (5 minutes before he gets off) and he informed me of the lifetime warranty and is sending me a FedEx label and i'll ship the gun to them Monday morning.

***In regards to other thread….He said the take down lever not staying down (ie: needing constant pressure) is "common in that model" and that there isn't much that'll be done for it, though I can add that to my write-up when I send it in.

Very smooth CS so far, with an estimated 3-6 week return let's hope everything continues flawlessly.

vossman · February 25, 2013, 06:03 PM

Looks like paper tears to me. You can see similar tears in the other bottom two holes just not as large. Too smooth for me to think tumbling bullets.
Did you have a solid back on the paper?

Looking closer it looks like there is good cardboard behind the holes but the holes in the cardboard are not keyhole shaped. They look to be round. Maybe the paper was bent off the backing?

Uncle Malice · February 25, 2013, 06:13 PM

That's not keyholing....

This is what keyholing 9mm looks like:

vossman · February 25, 2013, 06:17 PM

Agreed Uncle Malice.

Kreyzhorse · February 25, 2013, 06:59 PM

Agreed Vossman. Those do not look like they are keyholes and the cardboard backing looks like normal entry.

I would hold off calling S&W just yet.

Walt Sherrill · February 25, 2013, 07:41 PM

Agreed. Not KEYHOLING. Just cheap target paper TEARING.

If you see KEYHOLING, you don't get the sharp dark impression in the paper, made by the bullet nose hitting the paper BEFORE it tears -- and you can see that in all of the shots...

(Generally, too, when a gun is keyholing, you don't see groups unless you're really close to the target -- you just see patterns. <grin>)

greyeyezz · February 26, 2013, 02:16 PM

More keyholing

TheGoldenState · February 27, 2013, 11:20 PM

Guys,

I have the pre-paid fedex label from Smith and was/am planning on shipping tomorrow.

The two on the left, that look like vertical hour glasses are NOT keyholes???

I was getting that same exact shape (hour glass) for the 3-4 out of 10-12….

It was a hanging cardboard with paper stapled on to the front.

Again, are we certain this isn't keyholing (as you can see ive never dealt with this before, so bare with me please

).

Too bad my originals pics weren't showing up; might have saved me alot of grief. If they're not keyholes, whats with the paper tearing in this way? First time ive ever had consistent hour glasses.

Thanks,
TGS

ScottRiqui · February 27, 2013, 11:28 PM

I'm not sure what's causing the paper to tear that way (the 'hourglass' shape), but they're not keyholes. Like Walt said earlier, if you look closely, you can see the grey "grease mark" from the bullet penetrating the paper, and those marks are nice and round, just like the other three holes in the target.

WiscBuckmaster · February 27, 2013, 11:30 PM

The indoor range i go to has a horizontal "mouth" clamp on the carrier that clamps on top of the cardboard to hold the target. It has a slight angle to it so the target is not directly perpindicular with the floor, the bottom of the target is behind the top of the target. That could be contributing to the keyhole looking holes, the bullets might be going in on an angle. Maybe not, just a thought

TheGoldenState · February 27, 2013, 11:36 PM

Scott,

Another confirmation.

WiscBuck,

Yes, a single horizantal mouth clip is exactly what holding the cardboard.Have never noticed/had these hour glass tears tho….and it was happening on multiple targets, not just the one pictured.

**********************************************************
Looks like I get to trash the fedex label
**********************************************************

I'm not sure if i feel more RELIEF, or more EMBARRASSMENT

I wish my pics would have shown up originally……

MUCH appreciated

I almost want to delete this thread for looking like a fool, but I will leave it to hopefully help out the next keyhole-clueless person.

Thank god for this site or i'd be waiting 3-6 weeks for them to tell me there's nothing wrong.

Learned something today, that's forsure.

James K · February 28, 2013, 03:20 PM

That kind of thing can happen with some kinds of paper or with paper that is slightly damp or was damp and has dried out. It is not keyholing.

Jim

vossman · February 28, 2013, 05:43 PM

You're fine TGS, no embarrassment is necessary. That's why we post here. Did you get your other take down lever issue fixed? I have 7 M&P's and only one of them will not keep the take down lever completely in line with the slide. Even then it's off by only a few degrees so not enough to worry about for me.
The M&P line is pretty dang good, shoot it and have fun.

V

TheGoldenState · February 28, 2013, 08:19 PM

Thanks guys.

Voss, I wasn't going to send it in for the lever alone. When I spoke with SW tech he said he's heard about the lever alot, but wasn't sure what the shop would do about it, but to add that into my service letter regarding the keholing.

The M&P is probably my favorite gun.

I have yet to have a single failure out of either of mine.

February 18, 2013, 04:00 PM	#4
jbrown27 Member Join Date: January 27, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 37	Uhhh! Hope the 9mm part was a typo if not there's you're problem. __________________ Springfield XDS 45 Glock 19 Gen 3 Ruger SR40 Sig Sauer SP2022 9mm Smith & Wesson MP22 Tri Star T-120 Taurus TCP 738

February 18, 2013, 04:00 PM	#5
Skadoosh Senior Member Join Date: December 13, 2010 Location: Virginia Beach Posts: 2,016	...doh! __________________ NRA Life Member USN Retired

February 18, 2013, 04:31 PM	#7
Patriot328 Member Join Date: December 2, 2001 Location: PA Posts: 29	More New Gun Problems Funny stuff

February 18, 2013, 05:17 PM	#9
TheGoldenState Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2010 Posts: 1,191	YES……NEW 9 I have the .40, too. Now….on to the issue btw….is the pic showing up? It did for me earlier, not now. __________________ The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...

February 19, 2013, 12:56 AM	#11
TheGoldenState Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2010 Posts: 1,191	^^ not sure why its not appearing. The issue, key-holing, is what is shows though. __________________ The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...

February 18, 2013, 03:57 PM	#3
ShootingNut Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2006 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 1,475	"Second time out shooting my new Smith & Wesson M&P .40" "Winchester 9mm ammo" There's your problem!

February 18, 2013, 04:27 PM	#6
DATL Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2012 Posts: 113	LOL

February 18, 2013, 04:34 PM	#8
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	Another plus for revolvers... incorrect ammo choices are more obvious. Let's hope it was just a typo, I suspect that is the case.

February 18, 2013, 05:22 PM	#10
CurlyQ.Howard Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2012 Posts: 280	No photo available for me to see - just a ? mark.

February 21, 2013, 07:49 PM	#12
TheGoldenState Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2010 Posts: 1,191	Almost at minute 35 on the S&W customer suport center line. "All of our representatives are currently assisting other customers, please remain on the line…" ::::::: Update: Got through, talked to a great customer service rep. (5 minutes before he gets off) and he informed me of the lifetime warranty and is sending me a FedEx label and i'll ship the gun to them Monday morning. **In regards to other thread….He said the take down lever not staying down (ie: needing constant pressure) is "common in that model" and that there isn't much that'll be done for it, though I can add that to my write-up when I send it in. Very smooth CS so far, with an estimated 3-6 week return let's hope everything continues flawlessly. __________________ The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless... Last edited by TheGoldenState; February 21, 2013 at 08:20 PM.*

February 25, 2013, 06:03 PM	#13
vossman Member Join Date: November 27, 2010 Posts: 25	Looks like paper tears to me. You can see similar tears in the other bottom two holes just not as large. Too smooth for me to think tumbling bullets. Did you have a solid back on the paper? Looking closer it looks like there is good cardboard behind the holes but the holes in the cardboard are not keyhole shaped. They look to be round. Maybe the paper was bent off the backing?

February 25, 2013, 06:13 PM	#14
Uncle Malice Senior Member Join Date: May 11, 2009 Location: Phoenix Posts: 4,580	That's not keyholing.... This is what keyholing 9mm looks like: __________________ Handguns: 2x Glock 19.4 \| Glock 26.4 \| HK USP 9 \| HK P2000 \| HK VP9 SK \| HK P30 \| CZ Shadow 2 \| CZ P-10 C \| CZ P-07 \| CZP-01 \| S&W 360PD Rifles: DDM4 \| SGL 21 \| SAM7K \| Draco \| PSA PDW SBR \| ASA Side-Charger SBR \| CZ Scorpion K SBR \| Aero M4E1 9" 300blk SBR \| Angstadt Jack9 SBR \| Savage Mark II FV-SR Shotguns: Mossberg 590A1 20" SP \| Mossberg Shockwave

February 25, 2013, 06:17 PM	#15
vossman Member Join Date: November 27, 2010 Posts: 25	Agreed Uncle Malice.

February 25, 2013, 06:59 PM	#16
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	Agreed Vossman. Those do not look like they are keyholes and the cardboard backing looks like normal entry. I would hold off calling S&W just yet. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson Last edited by Kreyzhorse; February 26, 2013 at 07:11 AM.

February 25, 2013, 07:41 PM	#17
Walt Sherrill Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Winston-Salem, NC USA Posts: 6,348	Agreed. Not KEYHOLING. Just cheap target paper TEARING. If you see KEYHOLING, you don't get the sharp dark impression in the paper, made by the bullet nose hitting the paper BEFORE it tears -- and you can see that in all of the shots... (Generally, too, when a gun is keyholing, you don't see groups unless you're really close to the target -- you just see patterns. <grin>)

February 26, 2013, 02:16 PM	#18
greyeyezz Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2001 Location: N.E. OH Posts: 385	More keyholing

February 27, 2013, 11:20 PM	#19
TheGoldenState Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2010 Posts: 1,191	Guys, I have the pre-paid fedex label from Smith and was/am planning on shipping tomorrow. The two on the left, that look like vertical hour glasses are NOT keyholes??? I was getting that same exact shape (hour glass) for the 3-4 out of 10-12…. It was a hanging cardboard with paper stapled on to the front. Again, are we certain this isn't keyholing (as you can see ive never dealt with this before, so bare with me please). Too bad my originals pics weren't showing up; might have saved me alot of grief. If they're not keyholes, whats with the paper tearing in this way? First time ive ever had consistent hour glasses. Thanks, TGS __________________ The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless... Last edited by TheGoldenState; February 27, 2013 at 11:26 PM.

February 27, 2013, 11:28 PM	#20
ScottRiqui Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: Norfolk, VA Posts: 2,905	I'm not sure what's causing the paper to tear that way (the 'hourglass' shape), but they're not keyholes. Like Walt said earlier, if you look closely, you can see the grey "grease mark" from the bullet penetrating the paper, and those marks are nice and round, just like the other three holes in the target.

February 27, 2013, 11:30 PM	#21
WiscBuckmaster Member Join Date: February 16, 2013 Posts: 69	The indoor range i go to has a horizontal "mouth" clamp on the carrier that clamps on top of the cardboard to hold the target. It has a slight angle to it so the target is not directly perpindicular with the floor, the bottom of the target is behind the top of the target. That could be contributing to the keyhole looking holes, the bullets might be going in on an angle. Maybe not, just a thought

February 27, 2013, 11:36 PM	#22
TheGoldenState Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2010 Posts: 1,191	Scott, Another confirmation. WiscBuck, Yes, a single horizantal mouth clip is exactly what holding the cardboard.Have never noticed/had these hour glass tears tho….and it was happening on multiple targets, not just the one pictured. ******************************************************** Looks like I get to trash the fedex label ******************************************************** I'm not sure if i feel more RELIEF, or more EMBARRASSMENT I wish my pics would have shown up originally…… MUCH appreciated I almost want to delete this thread for looking like a fool, but I will leave it to hopefully help out the next keyhole-clueless person. Thank god for this site or i'd be waiting 3-6 weeks for them to tell me there's nothing wrong. Learned something today, that's forsure. __________________ The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...

February 28, 2013, 03:20 PM	#23
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	That kind of thing can happen with some kinds of paper or with paper that is slightly damp or was damp and has dried out. It is not keyholing. Jim

February 28, 2013, 05:43 PM	#24
vossman Member Join Date: November 27, 2010 Posts: 25	You're fine TGS, no embarrassment is necessary. That's why we post here. Did you get your other take down lever issue fixed? I have 7 M&P's and only one of them will not keep the take down lever completely in line with the slide. Even then it's off by only a few degrees so not enough to worry about for me. The M&P line is pretty dang good, shoot it and have fun. V

February 28, 2013, 08:19 PM	#25
TheGoldenState Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2010 Posts: 1,191	Thanks guys. Voss, I wasn't going to send it in for the lever alone. When I spoke with SW tech he said he's heard about the lever alot, but wasn't sure what the shop would do about it, but to add that into my service letter regarding the keholing. The M&P is probably my favorite gun. I have yet to have a single failure out of either of mine. __________________ The Day You Get Comfortable Is The Day You Get Careless...