Help with Accurate#5 load data

[sabjrXDM]

Hello everyone, This is my first post so go easy on me. I have always used Win 231 to reload my 9mm. Had to switch to Accurate#5 because there is no Win 231 to be found. I followed the load recommendations for a 115gr plated bullet but the rounds won't cycle the slide on my glock or XDM? I use a Lee loadmaster and I verified the grains of powder with a scale. Any thoughts? I'm up to 6 grains before it cycles properly.
Thanks in advance

[Don P]

From the Accurate powder web site,

115 (P) BERRY RNDS start gr.5.7 1,023 max gr.6.5 1,145 33,667 1.130

[sabjrXDM]

I saw that but RNDS means double strike. The RN's are 4.8, I didn't want to assume that is what they were. I thought it best to start on the low side. The box didn't say they were DS. Which brings up another question, how can that make such a big difference? They are the same weight, I could use some education here.

FYI- 5.7 wouldn't cycle in the glock but did in the XDM

Thanks

[Nick_C_S]

I have always used Win 231 to reload my 9mm. Had to switch to Accurate#5 because there is no Win 231 to be found.

For the record, W231 is a fast powder, and AA5 is a medium speed powder. So they're kind of apples n oranges. Just wanted to start by putting that baseline out there. But given the current component shortages, we load what we can get - I totally understand that.

I load with a lot of AA5 (W231 too, btw). So I figured I'd chime in here giving you my load recipe for 115g/AA5. After looking at my load data and chronograph results data, turns out, I don't have one lol. After all these shortages, my aim is to catalogue many powder/bullet combinations. Looks like I just found one I missed. It's on the agenda now.

Speer #14 has their 115g bullets with AA5 from 6.0g (1003 fps) to 6.7g (1102 fps). (Their test barrel is a 4".) I will be starting at 6.0 and working up. I would recommend you do the same - even with plated bullets.

I see a lot of posts here on TFL were it would seem many are getting all wrapped around the axle about plated bullets. They need to be treated like jacketed bullets, for the most part. The only exception would be high-end magnum or otherwise high pressure usage (e.g. 10mm Auto). And even then, only when you're pushing them toward the high end of the scale. In the case of 9mm, I simply treat as jacketed.

Now I would think they should start cycling before 6.0 grains; but that's just and off-the-top thought I find curious. If they didn't cycle, they didn't cycle.

Load 'em up more.

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond or not covered by currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
Here is what I expect from a Glock with 0.190" case support from over the feed ramp, based on my jug of AA#5

Book) AA Book: 115 gr., 1.095", 7 gr. AA#5, 1192 fps

Test set up) AA#5 9x19mm cart Overall length = 1.169", Win 115 gr. JHP=.541",RP primed brass

0) Minimum charge to cycle pistol........ 5.0 gr.
1) 9x19mm.................................7.7 gr.
2) 9x19mm +P.......................... 8.0 gr.
3) 9x19mm +P+....................... 8.3 gr.
4) 9x19mm overload.................. 9.1 gr.
5) 9x19mm overload ............10.0 gr.
6) 9x19mm overload ...... 10.5 gr.
7) 9x19mm overload ........10.7 gr. blow a hole in the case over the feed ramp
8) 9x19mm overload.....11.5 gr. case head blows off wrecks extractor and hold open, bits of brass blow holes in things to the right and rear of pistol.

And PLEASE do not replicate my testing.

[Misssissippi Dave]

I have found the Speer #14 load data to be pretty close with AA5 in 9 mm. Some other sources were not all that close to what I have measured. As mentioned, plated bullets in this caliber probably should be started with starting loads for jacketed bullets. I don't often load to max levels so I would think you would be just fine as long as you are not trying to load a max level load using jacketed data. I normally use AA5 for 124 grain Jacketed bullets. 5.8 to 6.0 grains gives me a nice range use load. Since you would normally need more powder to load 115 grain jacketed bullets, I would not expect your pistols to cycle reliably with anything less than 5.8 grains and a 115 grain plated bullet.

You probably should be starting at 6.0 grains and work up to 6.5 for a max load. My guess would be 6.2 to 6.4 would likely be close to a what you want for range use. AA5 does measure well in my powder measure.

[jag2]

#5 has been my favorite for 9mm (and others) for a while now. I got my data from the Lee manual which shows 6.3 as a min and 7.0 as a max. I think 6.0 would feel pretty weak. I'm usually doing 6.5 or 6.7 and it just feels right. Good crisp cycling of the action but no excessive recoil. Most of my reloading is for pistol (9mm, 38 spl, 45 ACP) so anytime I can get AA #5, Bullseye, or Win 231 I get it knowing I have good load for it. Main reason I prefer #5 is that it is a fairly fine grain powder and I use Lee dippers so I can get a more consistent load.

[Don P]

I saw that but RNDS means double strike.

Call me stupid, what does double strike mean and what difference will it make it the data provided. Educate me

[57K]

sabjrXDM, you can go to the Accurate or Ramshot websites and download the new #5 load guide produced by Western who owns both brands. Request a printed load guide while you're there as well. It includes some instructional articles that are not in the online data. The Western data is very good. It's all pressure tested and a lot of different bullet types are used including plated. AA#5 is a good all-around powder that will cover a lot of different loads. IMO, Ramshot True Blue is even better, but since you have #5 it should serve you very well in 9 x 19mm.

[steve4102]

Call me stupid, what does double strike mean and what difference will it make it the data provided. Educate me

It means they were run through the bullets sizing process twice for uniformity. It has no affect on load data. According to Berry, all their pistol bullets are
"Re-Struck" after plating.

Accurate's RNDS is the correct data to use.

[Onlooker]

I'm new reloader and was just having this exact same problem. Just started loading 9mm and used the 115 RN data from the Western Powders pdf online. Started at 5.3 which gave a lot of FTE & stovepipe problems. Then stepped it up to 5.6 and it wasn't much better (I know, probably should have gone higher but the max was listed at 5.9).

I'll go up to 6.0 and work up from there, using the RNDS data as my guidelines now.

Thanks to all who contributed here.

[57K]

Onlooker, for you and other new reloaders it's always a good idea to make just 10-20 rounds at a start charge and work up in no more than .2 gr. increments up to mid-charge level and again with 10 -20 test rounds because it's fairly common for lower charges not providing enough slide velocity for complete function. With faster burning powders, powder charge increases are best kept to .1 gr.

Looking at the new #5 Western load guide, which is downloadable and available in printed form with load instructions, I would use the data for the 115 gr. LaserBast RN. The RNDS data is for a plated bullet and runs a bit higher. With AA#5 the current load range is 5.2 - 6.1 grs. with the Max. load of 6.1 grs. showing 1179 FPS @ 34,420 PSI using a short OACL of 1.070" where the actual OACL for that bullet should be determined by the pistol it's to be fired from and a longer OACL is possible which will decrease velocity and pressure somewhat but you'll most likely get better accuracy by decreasing the amount of bullet "jump" from the case into the rifling of the barrel.

[Onlooker]

Oops, should have stated that I'm using Rainier plated, and thus used the RAIN 115 RN data from the WP downloadable pdf (Edition 5.0). And yes, I put together 12 rounds as a test before going further.

I'm curious, why would you use the lead bullet data over the RAIN plated data? I must be missing something.

[57K]

In my case I just don't see any advantage in using plated bullets. They're getting ever closer to the price of jacketed where I always buy JHPs over FMJ. For any application that doesn't require bullet expansion, cast bullets work as well as any for me while being a good bit less expensive than plated.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

AA #5 is a excellent powder. But I think in comparison its closer to the Unique category of powders than the hotter HP38 & 231 types.
But staying on subject. A recipe for your AA #5 calls for:
Low side >6.2 to 6.9 Max. for 115 gr jacketed bullets.
or
Low side >5.6 to 6.2 Max. for 115gr. Lead bullets.

You have to decide what category your bullet falls into? (Lead verses jacketed)

These loadings I've commented here are published in my 5th Edition Accurate Powders Loading Guide. Good Luck Sir.

BTW: High/ Five Sir. well done concerning your first post._

[Onlooker]

OK Sure Shot, now you've got me really confused. That jacketed data looks way high.

Are you referring to the data available here?: http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/

Because that shows jacketed data for 115 as: Start 5.4 Max 6

And

I may just scrap the idea of using Acc 5 for 9mm altogether. I found a good load for Ramshot Silhouette at 5.4 (good accuracy at 7 yds, cycled well), though I may nudge it up a bit to see how it acts at 5.5-5.6 (but I have more Acc 5 than R.S). I have still yet to try out Titegroup, which I have the most of.

[Nick_C_S]

I may just scrap the idea of using Acc 5 for 9mm altogether. I found a good load for Ramshot Silhouette. . .

Onlooker, although you can't go wrong with Ramshot Silhouette, it would a shame to scrap the use of AA5 - especially if you have a lot of it. AA5 is an excellent powder for 9mm (and many others). I would implore you to reconsider.

[jag2]

I still stand by the info in my post #7 but I did look at the Accurate site. I printed out the 9mm page from edition 3.3 from Accurate which isn't more than a few years old. I have no explanation for why it is so low now. You don't have to be a ballistic expert to know that if a charge won't cycle your action then it is too low. It is a great powder and if you follow the various loads in this post you will be more than happy.

[Onlooker]

Nick, I hear what you're saying. It's just a bit aggravating to not be able to get some good reliable and safe info for that combination. It's preached not to exceed published load data, etc., and yet that's exactly what I'll be doing if I proceed.

I realize that there's not one answer to these load data solutions, but until I'm more experienced with it I'd rather not push things.

And as for my questions to those in this thread, I was honestly trying to understand the reasoning, and/or figure out where my thought process had gone wrong.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Onlooker: The hand loaders guide is from 1991. Quite often the older listings have heavier in weight powder charges. Many say "use the newest listings available" Which is the Best advice. Sorry to say I on the other hand dwell in the past allot in regards to handloading techniques. Honestly its not good to troll for a handloading recipe. A simple unintentional mistake on someone's part can quite often confuse or worse yet produce a disastrous outcome for another. I'm very pleased you took the time and effort to point that figure out to me._ A Happy Thanksgiving to you Sir._

S/S

[Nick_C_S]

I hear what you're saying. It's just a bit aggravating to not be able to get some good reliable and safe info for that combination.

I can certainly understand that.

AA5 is a medium speed, spherical powder that is inherently forgiving; by that, I mean that it generally gives lots of warning before it goes into a pressure spike condition. (It's faster brother - AA2 - is amazingly forgiving. So it would follow that AA5 is even more so.) That, coupled with the fact that you're using a light 115g bullet (lighter bullets are more forgiving), the chances finding yourself in a dangerous load condition is quite remote. Have faith in yourself.

And have faith in this currently published load data from Speer #14: 115g/AA5 - 6.0g to 6.7g. I'm going to do the same - starting with the 6.0g. The Speer #14 is probably the single most used reference data source - it's about as reliable as it's going to get.