Hawken accuracy

chickenmcnasty · October 1, 2013, 08:05 AM

I am wanting to spend some time this year on a roundball load for my cabelas investarms hawken. I have experimented with .490 round ball and .010 patches with ffg powder.
I have read that some folks go to thicker patches and also fffg for this rifle. It seems to me that if I went to a thicker patch I would have to use a mallet to get the ball seated. Is this procedure okay? How tight is too tight?
Also, is fffg a better powder for this rifle?
Any advice that you could give would be a blessing as I really have no one to help show me the ropes. Thank you

Rifleman1776 · October 1, 2013, 08:45 AM

Strangely worded request.
You want top accuracy then complain about what you might have to do to achieve it.
A thicker patch is definitely reccomended than what you you are using.
Use of a .495 ball AND a thicker patch might give you top accuracy. Of course, you must choose a good lube and work up the optimum load of either 2Fg or 3Fg.
Those who go for competition worthy accuracy do usually use a short starter and small mallet to start their balls.
For hunting and quicker loading smaller balls and/or thinner patching will work but at the loss of some accuracy. However, for hunting, it is often said you can still achieve 'minute of deer' accuracy that way.

chickenmcnasty · October 1, 2013, 09:33 AM

I'm sorry I didn't mean for it to sound like I was complaining. I just wasn't sure if that process would do any damage to the gun over time. I'm still totally clueless when it comes to all things muzzleloading

chickenmcnasty · October 1, 2013, 10:12 AM

Is it advisable to run 3f or 2f in the rifle? I guess I just assumed 2f was for rifle and 3f was for pistols

Pahoo · October 1, 2013, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Is it advisable to run 3f or 2f in the rifle?

That is entirely up to you and I do prefer 3f, up to and including .50. I know a number of shooters that use it on .54. ....

There are many shot-strings that will work for you and your Side-Cocker. You have to work this out, in order to find the one, you "trust". ...

Be Safe !!!

Sure Shot Mc Gee · October 1, 2013, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Also, is fffg a better powder for this rifle?

There is some opinion amongst TFL members 3-FFF is less fouling and being of smaller kernel size it burns a little quicker thus requiring less of it compared to 2-FF for the same velocity. I'm not sure? but I think the difference is 10%
I started shooting B/P years ago. And have used Gorex 2-FF in my rifles from day one. As that is what my owners manual instructed me to use for their firing. But as is human nature. Many (including me) chose to experiment.{do their own thing} And many decided 3-FFF is their powder of choice over 2-FF suggested usage. For me I went a totally different route in making my own (wink wink.) 2-FF.

As far a patch thickness. The tighter the patch & ball is to its rifling the better the accuracy is to a point. But in hunting situations. To wrap a 495 ball with .18 -.20 lubed patching is not practical. Especially with a previously fired fouled barrel and its shooter requiring a quick follow up shot.
I shoot a 54-cal Hawken using 535 ball and .10 hand lubed patch and a 45-cal Hawken w/445 ball and .10 patch and get excellent results out to 100 yards with both rifles and in using their original open barrel sights also. And neither give me a reloading problem up in my stand while watching my game succumb to its single shot wound and again reloading as quick as I can for that second shot if needed.

When your in competition shooting you perhaps have available that 3-lb carpenters mallet to help pound down those excessively tightly patched loadings for best accuracy. But when afield. Well you know." where's the biggest live tree I can jam my ram rod into because of that .20 patch tightness"_

maillemaker · October 1, 2013, 08:42 PM

I can't help you with patched bullet questions, but you can shoot 3F or 2F in a musket. I agree with what Sure Shot said in that the 3F, being a finer granulation with more surface area, burns a bit quicker than the 2F and so you can generally use a little less 3F than 2F and achieve the same result.

Really, all you can do is experiment until you find a combination that gives you the best accuracy for any given powder, lube, and bullet.

I just dialed in my Pedersoli P58 today. You can see what a huge difference happens when you go from 55 grains of powder to 60 grains:

http://i.imgur.com/SzKuKkW.jpg

It is entirely possible to find multiple combinations that yield the same results. Personally I'm happy to just find one!

Steve

mehavey · October 1, 2013, 09:18 PM

You want at least a 0.015" patch, and a ball that allows the combination to be loaded into
a damp-wiped (not dirty) barrel in a stiffly-smooth fashion. "Eeeeasy" sliding in is way too
loose, having to pound in is too tight.

Stiff to start, smooth once it begins to move each time. You may/should be able to run it
down the barrel 6-8 inches at a time that way using both hands on the shaft of the ramrod
until the very end. Then one smooth forceful/final seating stroke w/ palm over the ramrod end.

A 0.019-0.020" ticking patch is recommended/even more reliable since there's a smaller random
chance of blowing/burning through it.

As you might have guessed, this is a 2-variable black art problem as dimensions change:
Each can vary, but the SUM of ball diameter + 2x patch thickness remains the same.

post:
With the 50 and 54, FFg is the workhorse.
45 and below, FFFg is most common.
(Black art again, not carved in stone)

dlbarr · October 1, 2013, 11:16 PM

...I don't shoot a RB in my .50 cal because it's a fast twist barrel for conicals. But, if I did....I'd shoot 3fg Goex behind a smaller ball with a thicker patch. Something like a .480 RB and a .020-.025" greased patch. It will load easier because there's more give to the patch which will "fill" the groves, and you won't have to pound the ball resulting in deformation. This will give you plenty of accuracy for hunting, certainly for plinking and you might (depending on YOUR ability) even take a prize or two at your club's monthly shoot.

Now, if you're looking for pinpoint, tack-driving competition accuracy...well, I have no opinion on that, not even close to qualified to speak on it.

In my .54, I shoot 2fg Goex behind a Hornady .520" RB wrapped in a .020" patch. Easily shoots 1 hole groups at 50 yds.

Just MHO....

kwhi43 · October 2, 2013, 02:06 AM

Good shooting there. If you shoot one hole groups at 50 yds, you ought to
think about shooting at the Nationals at Friendship. You would win all the bench
matches and set new records with that kind of shooting.

dlbarr · October 2, 2013, 08:21 AM

Quote:

You would win all the bench
matches and set new records with that kind of shooting.

First, let me correct myself -- 1" groups @ 50yds is more like it. Although I have shot one ragged hole groups before.

Not trying to be falsely modest here, but I don't really find it all that remarkable - it's only 50 yds, from a bench rest and I use a rear aperture sight. Now if I could such things at 100 yds, then I'd be impressed with myself.

I don't follow the competitive circles at all and would have thought one hole groups from a 50y bench would be commonplace - not that every shooter would perform at that level, but that several would.

maillemaker · October 2, 2013, 11:42 AM

Hey dlbarr,

You ought to check out competition shooting, it's a hoot! I shoot with the N-SSA: http://www.n-ssa.org.

Steve

dlbarr · October 2, 2013, 11:49 AM

Quote:

You ought to check out competition shooting, it's a hoot! I shoot with the N-SSA: http://www.n-ssa.org.

Definitely looks interesting. Unfortunately, in terms of participating, that organization has no opportunities for me as I live in the Pacific NW. But I could probably easily get consumed with that as I enjoy the history of the War Between the States.

Hawg · October 2, 2013, 08:08 PM

I have shot one hole groups with mine but its a very tight ball/patch combo and it is a pretty big hole.

October 1, 2013, 08:05 AM	#1
chickenmcnasty Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Location: Wichita, KS Posts: 158	Hawken accuracy I am wanting to spend some time this year on a roundball load for my cabelas investarms hawken. I have experimented with .490 round ball and .010 patches with ffg powder. I have read that some folks go to thicker patches and also fffg for this rifle. It seems to me that if I went to a thicker patch I would have to use a mallet to get the ball seated. Is this procedure okay? How tight is too tight? Also, is fffg a better powder for this rifle? Any advice that you could give would be a blessing as I really have no one to help show me the ropes. Thank you

October 1, 2013, 09:18 PM	#8
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,894	You want at least a 0.015" patch, and a ball that allows the combination to be loaded into a damp-wiped (not dirty) barrel in a stiffly-smooth fashion. "Eeeeasy" sliding in is way too loose, having to pound in is too tight. Stiff to start, smooth once it begins to move each time. You may/should be able to run it down the barrel 6-8 inches at a time that way using both hands on the shaft of the ramrod until the very end. Then one smooth forceful/final seating stroke w/ palm over the ramrod end. A 0.019-0.020" ticking patch is recommended/even more reliable since there's a smaller random chance of blowing/burning through it. As you might have guessed, this is a 2-variable black art problem as dimensions change: Each can vary, but the SUM of ball diameter + 2x patch thickness remains the same. post: With the 50 and 54, FFg is the workhorse. 45 and below, FFFg is most common. (Black art again, not carved in stone) Last edited by mehavey; October 1, 2013 at 09:24 PM.

October 1, 2013, 11:16 PM	#9
dlbarr Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2011 Posts: 162	Depends on what kind of accuracy you're after... ...I don't shoot a RB in my .50 cal because it's a fast twist barrel for conicals. But, if I did....I'd shoot 3fg Goex behind a smaller ball with a thicker patch. Something like a .480 RB and a .020-.025" greased patch. It will load easier because there's more give to the patch which will "fill" the groves, and you won't have to pound the ball resulting in deformation. This will give you plenty of accuracy for hunting, certainly for plinking and you might (depending on YOUR ability) even take a prize or two at your club's monthly shoot. Now, if you're looking for pinpoint, tack-driving competition accuracy...well, I have no opinion on that, not even close to qualified to speak on it. In my .54, I shoot 2fg Goex behind a Hornady .520" RB wrapped in a .020" patch. Easily shoots 1 hole groups at 50 yds. Just MHO....

October 1, 2013, 08:45 AM	#2
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	Strangely worded request. You want top accuracy then complain about what you might have to do to achieve it. A thicker patch is definitely reccomended than what you you are using. Use of a .495 ball AND a thicker patch might give you top accuracy. Of course, you must choose a good lube and work up the optimum load of either 2Fg or 3Fg. Those who go for competition worthy accuracy do usually use a short starter and small mallet to start their balls. For hunting and quicker loading smaller balls and/or thinner patching will work but at the loss of some accuracy. However, for hunting, it is often said you can still achieve 'minute of deer' accuracy that way.

October 1, 2013, 09:33 AM	#3
chickenmcnasty Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Location: Wichita, KS Posts: 158	I'm sorry I didn't mean for it to sound like I was complaining. I just wasn't sure if that process would do any damage to the gun over time. I'm still totally clueless when it comes to all things muzzleloading

October 1, 2013, 10:12 AM	#4
chickenmcnasty Senior Member Join Date: December 10, 2012 Location: Wichita, KS Posts: 158	Is it advisable to run 3f or 2f in the rifle? I guess I just assumed 2f was for rifle and 3f was for pistols

October 1, 2013, 08:42 PM	#7
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	I can't help you with patched bullet questions, but you can shoot 3F or 2F in a musket. I agree with what Sure Shot said in that the 3F, being a finer granulation with more surface area, burns a bit quicker than the 2F and so you can generally use a little less 3F than 2F and achieve the same result. Really, all you can do is experiment until you find a combination that gives you the best accuracy for any given powder, lube, and bullet. I just dialed in my Pedersoli P58 today. You can see what a huge difference happens when you go from 55 grains of powder to 60 grains: http://i.imgur.com/SzKuKkW.jpg It is entirely possible to find multiple combinations that yield the same results. Personally I'm happy to just find one! Steve

October 2, 2013, 02:06 AM	#10
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	Good shooting there. If you shoot one hole groups at 50 yds, you ought to think about shooting at the Nationals at Friendship. You would win all the bench matches and set new records with that kind of shooting.

October 2, 2013, 11:42 AM	#12
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	Hey dlbarr, You ought to check out competition shooting, it's a hoot! I shoot with the N-SSA: http://www.n-ssa.org. Steve

October 2, 2013, 08:08 PM	#14
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	I have shot one hole groups with mine but its a very tight ball/patch combo and it is a pretty big hole.