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Old April 16, 2017, 04:19 AM   #26
G.barnes
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On the robski video with the DD. It starts having problems, but as soon as ge opens it up everything is fine inside and the rifle starts working again with no problem. Any manufacturer of an ar can have a poped primer or piece of junk get into the fcg.
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Old April 16, 2017, 04:36 AM   #27
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I'm not saying the OP will run the rifle like Robski, and I know it's a sample of one. If we judged every brand by a sample of one, there wouldn't be any rifles worth buying.

But you also said Rifle tip: don't drop the rifle. Stuff happens at times, and rugged gear is preferred. I'd trust a DD, but for a usual lower price, other rifles perform just as well.
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Old April 16, 2017, 05:09 AM   #28
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There is also the odd fluke as well.

A entry level PSA Freedom line rifle performed very well in his testing... While not a bad rifle, I don't think anyone would say it is better than aDD even if it faired better in that example of one.


Many companies make a fine AR now... Colt is not the only game in town making good quality rifles. If you research, you can find many brands that receive high praise. For example, FN makes rifles for the military now too...


Ultimately you have to look at your buying budget, and then factor in the rifle, several spare mags, sights, maybe an optic... and ammo to run it with.

Once you know your budjet, you have to figure out how much each category gets spent on it.

Spending less on a rifle means a bigger initial ammo supply, or a better optic...

Most agree that having a lower cost but well made simple rifle... plus training and trigger time with proper practice, is better than a fancy rifle that sits in the safe.
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Old April 18, 2017, 03:35 PM   #29
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I would feel well protected by a Colt or BCM. I actually spent my money on a BCM a few years ago and couldn't be happier. Only have a few thousand rounds through it so far. Both it and Colt are "mil-spec" and adhere to the TDP. Pat Rogers who ran EAG Tactical (he recently passed away) has one BCM carbine with over 40K rounds through it and it still functions (google "Filthy 14"). Good luck!
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Old April 20, 2017, 11:41 PM   #30
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Disillusioned.....confused

I have been exchanging emails with BCM since they are not accepting phone calls. They have been helpful in answering my questions and educating.

However, their latest answer to my latest email questioning why there were various models of the same gun (BCM RECCE-16 KMR-A 750-790 vs BCM RECCE-16 KMR-A BFH GOVT 5.56 750-790) took me by surprise. Their response was...

"Placing one of our upper receiver groups onto one of our lower receiver groups is completely acceptable. This gives our dealers and distributors the ability to offer different complete rifle configurations that we do not currently ship out as complete rifles. They can order a complete upper receiver group configuration and use it in conjunction with a lower receiver group to offer as a complete weapon system to a customer that may not want to purchase the upper and lower individually."

So, is this a regular practice in the industry that a rifle ordered could be assembled by the dealer you ordered from or be assembled by the distributor and not from the company itself? It just doesn't sound right and maybe a little misleading for the consumer.

I realize there are other industries (beer, soda, ec.) that have distributions centers that "make" the end product. But rifles, really?

At this point, I am disillusioned or maybe I was just ignorant to the industry and their standards.

Can anyone confirm this is normal with all companies?

Last edited by CodeSection; April 20, 2017 at 11:48 PM.
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Old April 21, 2017, 12:40 AM   #31
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BCM offers a very wide selection of barrel types, handguard types, charging handles, colors, and other bits and parts.

Offering a complete rifle model for every combination and upper they offer would get out of hand for their tracking and logistics, especially when they already offer the uppers and parts for sale piecemeal.

So they make a few dedicated models of complete rifles with the more popular features... Kind of like a car manufacturer... They make a certain model car, and have different basic trim levels and popular options, that cover most buyers wants/needs. If you want a special setup, you have the dealer order the exact set of options you want. "I want the premium radio, sunroof, and keyless entry... but I don't want the leather seats that come with the luxury and convenience package trim levels" Well special order it without...

A gun dealer can do the same thing with BCM... Order the uppers and lowers separate, and put them together when they arrive, and sell them as a complete rifle. As at that point, they are.

Its an easy way for local shops and distributors to get a wider variety of rifle styles on the shelf, without BCM having to track all the possible combinations and have them assembled in house ready to go.

At no point, is the gun shop or distributor assembling a rifle from scratch/piece parts.

All the shop is doing is putting an upper on a lower... Something you do every time you field strip an AR to clean it... Its basically zero effort.

Its the same thing an individual can do... Which is why many people like BCM, they have options... They can select the combination they want, order the appropriate upper, and a mating lower, and have a complete BCM rifle just how they want it, with no real effort in assembly.
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Old April 21, 2017, 02:36 AM   #32
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Thanks for a great explanation marine6680!

Well, I guess I have a lot to learn. For some reason, I thought BCM test fired every assembled rifle as well as check for a tight fit. I found that dealers and distributors do not test fire the rifles they assemble nor do they disclose they are assembling the rifle configuration that may be listed on their website or on GunBroker. Which by the sounds of it is no big deal....

Also, I found a video made a couple of years ago with Larry Vickers interviewing Paul Buffoni and at the 3:15 mark it shows the uppers being test fired. https://youtu.be/JPLRUZbK_6I

So I wonder if some of BCM vendors are better than others on trying to find a tight fit? Any recommendations on BCM vendor list?

http://bravocompanymfg.com/support/where_to_buy.php
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Old April 21, 2017, 06:34 AM   #33
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The Aero Precision rifle mentioned earlier solves this "problem" with a tensioning screw built into the lower.

If you are concerned about this you may wish to handle any rifle in person before buying.
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Old April 21, 2017, 08:01 AM   #34
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BCM test fires every rifle and upper before it leaves the factory... they even test fire every stand alone BCG they sell as well.

This is why you are not likely to have a bad BCM get out in the wild.

A tight fit between receivers is desirable but ultimately not a big issue. If it bothers you if you order separate uppers and lowers and get a little play, there are simple ways of correcting the issue.
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Old April 30, 2017, 12:54 AM   #35
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Well, I looked into possibly building a rifle. Using mostly Aero Precision parts, the cost was about $150 cheaper than buying. However, the weight was at 7.5 lbs building vs 5.8 lbs buying. If I bought a 4 oz lighter barrel, the savings would be even lower.

I guess I could have bought various items at different vendors, but then I would have to deal with shipping costs. Waiting for sales and free shipping around the holidays was not an option, plus I did not want to take up more of my time. For my situation, the savings was not worth my time.

I ended up buying three BCM RECCE-16 KMR-A BFH ELW.

Thank you to all who posted! I appreciate your help.
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Old April 30, 2017, 06:08 AM   #36
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Does not Springfield Armory in Geneseo, IL also make and own the Armalite brand in Geneseo, IL. If so the Saint is still being made by an experienced AR company? i like the looks and features in the Saint. My choice.

Last edited by peggysue; April 30, 2017 at 06:46 AM.
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Old April 30, 2017, 07:46 AM   #37
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If you told me that price didn't matter, I would get the bcm. ...only because of all the good I have heard which is mostly from the building an image with young and experienced military guys. They also make a GREAT rifle.

Colt is the standard and has done way less to market themselves, which is killing their name in a business stability sense.

Springfield Armory is a gun towards sport shooters, especially women. Makes some shooters puke in their mouth. I struggle with where that is going....I don't like themed rifles, but that is marketing and it sells.

So, if price matters, and it does, I would buy the Saint and not look back. IMO, it is setup well from SA and just needs ammo, optics and a sling. I think all of these guns will handle use and abuse from one shooter if cleaned and maintained somewhat regularly.
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Old April 30, 2017, 08:43 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeSection View Post
Well, I looked into possibly building a rifle. Using mostly Aero Precision parts, the cost was about $150 cheaper than buying. However, the weight was at 7.5 lbs building vs 5.8 lbs buying. If I bought a 4 oz lighter barrel, the savings would be even lower.

I guess I could have bought various items at different vendors, but then I would have to deal with shipping costs. Waiting for sales and free shipping around the holidays was not an option, plus I did not want to take up more of my time. For my situation, the savings was not worth my time.

I ended up buying three BCM RECCE-16 KMR-A BFH ELW.

Thank you to all who posted! I appreciate your help.
It looks like you chose a very nice rifle.

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...50-790-BFH-ELW

It's surprising that there is so little price difference and so much weight difference between the BCM you chose and an AERO build.

It would be interesting to know what parts you were going to use for the Aero build.
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Old April 30, 2017, 08:46 AM   #39
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If you're looking at the Saint, you might also want to look at S&W's MP15 Mid-Length MOE. A mid length gas system carbine, the S&W is a decent commercial carbine set up with a 1:8 twist lightweight 16" barrel and Magpul MOE furniture. While it has the MOE handguard rather than a aluminum rail HG the BCM and Colt have, it does come with sights and is ready to shoot.

I have 2 RRA ARs, a 20" rifle and 16" carbine and I set up my mid-length carbine much like the S&W but 10 years before it was introduced. When my son 'liberated' my carbine a few years ago, I looked over the S&W and liked it well enough to get one.

After 3½ years shooting it with over 3,000rds down range, I'm very pleased with it overall. It's solid and dependable, accurate, and works failure free with the Magpul mags it came with plus the 10 more I got for it.
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Old April 30, 2017, 12:16 PM   #40
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Very nice choice!
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Old April 30, 2017, 07:48 PM   #41
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I will never buy a Saint or any other Springfield Armory product, and neither should you:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...for-carve-out/
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Old April 30, 2017, 08:00 PM   #42
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I absolutely love my DDV11SLW Reliable, light and a joy to shoot.
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Old May 1, 2017, 08:31 AM   #43
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I will never buy a Saint or any other Springfield Armory product, and neither should you:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...for-carve-out/
I've seen these types of posts before--gun blogs tend to get in a bit over their heads when they wade into legislative interpretation and I suspect there's more to this story than a simple "they are caving on 2nd amendment defense" spin. I remember well the rants against most of the on-line suppliers when prices ran up and a shortage occurred. I wonder how many people are still boycotting those suppliers.
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Old May 1, 2017, 09:56 AM   #44
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Quote:
I've seen these types of posts before--gun blogs tend to get in a bit over their heads when they wade into legislative interpretation and I suspect there's more to this story than a simple "they are caving on 2nd amendment defense" spin. I remember well the rants against most of the on-line suppliers when prices ran up and a shortage occurred.
Yet it does appear to be the case in this instance, and SAI's silence on the subject is deafening.

Quote:
I wonder how many people are still boycotting those suppliers.
I know of many folks who no longer deal with Cheaper Than Dirt (myself included). And it took years for S&W to recover from their deals with the Clinton administration (which basically drove the company into receivership).

With so many good options available today (in terms of products and retailers), and the ease of communication via social media and the internet, it's suicide for firearms-related companies to deal with those politicians that plot to steal our inherent rights.
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Old May 1, 2017, 10:10 AM   #45
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I stick to my boycotting. CTD is one of the firearm related retailers.
I've also moved away from purchasing PSA as well.
A few others that aren't firearm related as well. Not only for political reasons.
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Old May 1, 2017, 11:33 AM   #46
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Do what you must or feels right. Isn't going to stop me from buying SA products--at least at this point.
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Old May 1, 2017, 11:56 AM   #47
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Do what you must or feels right. Isn't going to stop me from buying SA products--at least at this point.
That's your prerogative. But we aren't going to win the fight against the constant erosion of our inherent freedoms by staying quiet.

Anyway - time to get back on topic. Of the 3 - BCM.
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Old May 1, 2017, 03:39 PM   #48
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O4L, below is a list that I had made up to help me make a decision to build vs buy. Also, I included the lighter barrel...

AR15 Stripped Lower Receiver, Gen 2 - Anodized Black Product 69.99
AR15 M4E1 Enhanced Upper Receiver - Anodized Black Product 149.99
AR15 Enhanced Lower Parts Kit Product 100.00
BCMGUNFIGHTER Charging Handle (5.56mm/.223) w/ Mod 4 (MEDIUM) Latch 49.95
AR15 Enhanced M-LOK Handguards, Gen 2 Product 179.99
AR15/M4 Enhanced Pistol Buffer Kit Product 50.00
16" 5.56 CMV Barrel, Mid-Length Product 179.99 or ***
***CRITERION BARRELS INC - ULTRALIGHT CONTOUR AR-15 BARREL 269.99
.750 Low Profile Gas Block Product 29.99
Mid length Stainless Steel Gas Tubes Product 15.00
5.56 Nickel Boron Bolt Carrier Group, Complete Product 175.00
B5 Systems BRAVO Stock - Black Product 62.00
Magpul Pmag Moe 5.56 Window 30rd Black 15.00
AR15 A2 Birdcage Flash Hider 5.59

In the end, for my situation, along with my time constraint and perhaps skill set, buying made more sense. I like the idea of 5.8 lbs too.
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Old May 1, 2017, 04:01 PM   #49
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Thanks CodeSection.

I've never bought or built an AR based on it's weight.

I definitely like the idea of a lighter rifle, to a certain extent, but never really considered it much, especially for a HD setup.

If I were to need one to carry long distances while hunting, then I would be more concerned about the rifle's weight.

Sent from my LGLS660 using Tapatalk
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Old May 1, 2017, 04:43 PM   #50
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Me--I'll probably jump on the first XDe I see--especially if (when) it comes in 45.
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