Barnes TSX

[MarkCO]

I have been using the Barnes TSX (and TTSX) on game for about 4 years now. I like Barnes and this bullet line had some good appeal and several people who I respected vouched for it.

I have used the .22, 6mm, 6.5mm, .30 caliber and .338 caliber. I must say that as impressed as I have been with the smaller calibers, I just can't get the terminal performance I want with the .30 and .338 caliber. To me, it seems that this is a bullet more suited to the smaller diameters, and as fast as you can push them.

My 410 yard shot on a large cow elk yesterday with the .338 had an entry hole and exit hole that was exactly the same diameter. The prior rounds I have shot on elk with the Barnes TSX and TTSX have shown that (at least for my MV of 2850) past about 250 yards (or 2200 fps impact velocity) expansion is minimal at best. Barnes states expansion down to 1500, but based on my experience, I am starting to think that is just the tip starting to expand, but for actual usable expansion, 2200 fps is needed.

The elk went about 50 yards and went down and required a finish shot. The impact location was about in the middle of the lungs vertically, and the last 1/3 horizontally. The lungs were bloodshot, but not jellied. While the diaphragm was intact, one of the stomachs was ruptured. Granted 410 yards is a little longer than most will shoot and was not "perfect" placement. However, impact velocity and energy were well within ethical parameters and ones which Barnes published. I had almost the same impact point on an elk 5 years ago with a 210 Nosler at 525 yards that was a DRT, 1" exit hole and jellied lungs. Inside 250, the bullets seemed to perform well, which is fine for some folks, but I don't have the confidence that they will expand at longer yardages (or really, slower impact velocities).

So, long story short, I am done with the Barnes TSX and TTSX in the .30 and .338 calibers. Of course, YMMV, and I am sure someone will get their shorts in a bunch, but just passing on my observations from the field.

[jmr40]

The above photos show expansion vs velocity of Noslers copper bullet compared to the Accubond. All copper bullets perform about the same. Clearly the copper bullets NEED more speed. At least in calibers .308 and smaller. FWIW the TTSX is the far better choice in smaller calibers, the plastic tip aids expansion.

I think copper can work if used right but Barnes' recommendation of 1500 fps is way off base and has been proven so by numerous hunters. You're right, 2000-2200 fps at impact is a good place to be. But that is possible at some pretty long ranges if you start with lighter bullets.

The bullet WILL penetrate MUCH deeper than conventional bullets, but expand less. Game WILL travel farther after a hit, but because of penetration you will probably recover the animal. You might have to travel 50-60 yards farther. If you want bang-flop kills a bullet that expands rapidly works better, as long as you hit vitals. Copper bullets are better for shots from bad angles.

The key is to drop down in weight. A 30 caliber 130 gr copper bullet performs on game much like a 180 gr standard bullet. Unless hunting dangerous game there isn't much need for anything heavier than 150 gr copper bullets.

Because of the need for speed they are not a long range bullet, but 150's fired from a 30-06 will still be above 2000 fps at 500 yards, I'd not hesitate to use one at 400. For really long range work I'd want another bullet. They do make smaller caliber guns more effective on really large game if the range is kept close.

I've experimented with 130 in my 308 and 150's in my 30-06 and can get 3000+ fps with either. I've not hunted with them simply because the accuracy is not quite as good as with other loads I've used. But used within their limitations I'd not be afraid to use them on game.

[Dufus]

I watched a hunting buddy nail an Elk in the heart with a copper bullet and the animal never even acknowledged the hit....just kept grazing. Distance was 130 yds.

The second shot flipped the bull over on its ass and he went down hard.

Don't ask me why. I never had a jacketed bullet create such a scenario.

Accubonds are perfect for Elk in the right calibers.

[MrBorland]

I understand your point is that you're beginning to think Barnes' recommendation is a bit optimistic for the .30 & .338 bullets, but I've always thought the T/TSX design generally came with a bit of a Catch22, at least for long range hunting: You need terminal velocity for terminal performance, so it's recommended you step down in bullet weight. In doing so, however, it seems to me these lighter bullets would shed velocity quicker, making it tough to maintain optimal velocity at long range. They've got legions of fans from actual and satisfied users, so hey, what do I know?

[MarkCO]

jmr40, I agree with you. I was shooting 185s in the .338, so the lightest I could get. I am going to use up what I have left for deer and hogs and use a better bullet for the elk. In the .22 and 6.6mms, I have been happy with them out to 500 yards.

MrBorland, I think the legions of fans are likely not shooting elk at 400 yards and further. Closer in, with the normal ranges people shoot deer and elk at, I think they are a pretty decent bullet.

Dufus, my Dad hit an elk 3 times in the chest at 80 yards, and it kept eating grass. I handed him my .30-06 and the elk went down like a hot sack of potatoes. I like to kid him about it, and he did hold a 1.5" group offhand right through the middle of the lungs, but elk are not like other game.

[AllenJ]

I'm a Barnes fan but my shorts are not in a bunch, sorry to disappoint

I completely agree with you, usable expansion is what needs to be achieved for these bullets to do the job. I have always set that mark at 2000 FPS but I use the LRX and per Barnes they'll expand better at lower velocities than the TTSX. For that reason I don't shoot at animals past 500 yards when using them in my 7mm. If I owned a 338 I doubt too I would use Barnes bullets. By the time you make a copper bullet light enough to achieve the velocity needed for acceptable performance the SD would make cup and core bullets a better choice in my opinion.

[MarkCO]

AllenJ, thanks. I will have to try some of the LRX in the 7mm and .30 calibers.

[reynolds357]

The Barnes x is designed to handle bone impact. Shoot the elk on the shoulder blade with the x. The x is not the ideal bullet for lung shots. Berger vld is your ideal lung shot bullet.

[Wyosmith]

My experience with Barnes is that impact velocity should be 2200 or more. They say the bullet work at lower velocities, but that's not been my experience.

Overall I still like Nosler Partitions better.

In fact, in 270 and 30 cal the 150 gr Remington Core-lokt and the 150 and 180 Gr Winchester Power Points have been excellent. I believe in premium bullets but not all of them are "trick" bullets. In the 27, 28 and 30 cals I have found that some of the plain old Rem and Winchester bullets do as much damage as Nosler Partitions and more then Branes if the impact velocity is low.

Premium bullets are supposed to do one thing. Make a big hole through anything they hit including heavy bone, and come out the other side. When we consider the fact that it's the bullet HOLE that is killing the animal, we have to admit that if the holes go clear through, and if the diameter of those holes are the same from 3 bullets, then all 3 bullets are equally good.
Regardless of them being labeled "premium" or not.

As a rule I get excellent performance with Nosler Partitions at all impact velocities from 3000 FPS down to about 1300 FPS. No other bullet in am personally experienced with can make that claim. that may change soon with the use of bonded bullets, but I have only a small amount of experience with them so far. All good!
The very tough bullets like the Barnes work well at the high end of impact velocity, but not at the low end. The very soft ones like Sierra Game Kings work at the low end, but blow up badly at the high end.

100% of the hits I have seen so far with Burgers with every caliber at every range have been failures.
I have seen about 25 head of game killed with them in 270, 7MM, 30s and 338s and NONE have been good. In my opinion Burger gets the prize for making the very worst game bullet on the planet today.
Will the kill? Sure. All the game I just mentioned were dead, but some were hit several times and all had the bullets simply blow apart, including those shot with very large, heavy 338s, and 2 of them were smallish doe antelope. Just not impressed at all.

The very best cup and core bullets I have seen overall have been about 1/2 of the Remington Core-Lokts, and 27, 28 30 32 and 37 cal Winchester Power Points. Not something that you hear said in the gun rags, but with over 5 decades of hunting and guiding, that the truth.
In the Core-lokt bullets I have seen the 100 gr 25 cal is bad for coming apart and giving shallow penetration, as is the 120 gr .264. The 277 130 gr is pretty good but not outstanding but the .277 150 grain is as good as any Barnes, Nosler, or Swift I have ever seen.

All the Winchester Power points of 277, 284,308, 323,and 375 have been excellent. In fact the 375 bullets are so good that I have yet to find anything better. Nosler partitions are as good but not better. Too bad you can't buy them anymore and Remington won't sell us their 150 gr .277 either.
(Grumble Grumble Grumble.....)

Cup and core bullets from Speer, Sierra and Hornady can vary quite a lot depending on what bullet it is. Weight, diameter and velocity cause vast differences in them. So a bullet from any of them shot from a 308 may be very good and the same bullet be a total failure when shot from a 300 mag ----and so on.

[treg]

Very informative Wyosmith.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

[MarkCO]

The Barnes x is designed to handle bone impact. Shoot the elk on the shoulder blade with the x. The x is not the ideal bullet for lung shots. Berger vld is your ideal lung shot bullet.

Was not shooting the standard X. Have seen dismal failures with the Bergers, not a good bullet in my book.

Wyosmith, thanks for the comments. I have seen really good performance with the Accubonds. If the Partitions did not have that dang soft lead tip, I might not ever use anything else.

[shootbrownelk]

I use 235 gr. barnes X bullets in my .375 H&H, excellent accuracy and great performance on quite a few Elk and one Moose. I'm a fan. Most of the kills with the .375 were under 300 yds. No complaints. I use the 150's in my 30.06 but after reading this thread I may try those 130's and get my speed up a bit.

[reynolds357]

I know. All the x family of bullets behave the same. I call all of them x because they are. Tip or not, grooves or not; they behave near identical. What would you consider. A failure in the Berger. The bullet is designed to explode.