165gr Norma Oryx JSP flat base bullets. FPS for expansion?

Pond, James Pond · December 29, 2014, 05:19 PM

What sort of velocity should I be aiming for with these bullets for them to expand well, but not come apart?

Game would be boar, deer, elk and anything in between. In that order.

Load wise, I'm looking, as usual, at VV powders. N135 or N140. The latter tends to develop more speed for the same barrel length.

I will be loading for accuracy, but if the tightest group lacks the velocity needed for expansion, then I'll go for the velocity given that my likely hunting range is 50-200m.

So far here are the loads for a 165gr bullet.

N135 (based on a Speer BT) 38.3gr-44.1gr (max FPS 2700)
N140 (same as above) 40.1gr-46.3gr (max FPS 2750)

N135 (based on a Speer BT) 38.8gr-42.7gr (max FPS 2627)
N140 (same as above) 40.6gr-46.3gr (max FPS 2680)

Anyone with more exact data for these powders, (Oryx ideally, or just 165gr Jacketed flat-base bullets) please chime in.

Pond, James Pond · December 30, 2014, 04:13 AM

... what about the Nosler Partition 165gr with N135 or N140?

These have a very similar shape to the Oryx and so are probably more representative of what I need for the Oryx.

Jimro · December 30, 2014, 06:30 PM

You cannot shoot either of those bullets fast enough in a 308 Win to tear apart in the game you mentioned. They were designed with magnum velocities in mind.

Expansion in any soft point spitzer bullet drops off below 2200 fps, and is almost non existant below 1800 fps. Bullets designed to work well in that velocity range are generally large flat meplat based as used in the 30-30 Win, or like the "LeveRevolution" bullets designed specifically to open up.

Above 2300 fps you should see adequate to good expansion with both the Oryx and Partition. Of the tougher bullets both are designed to mushroom relatively easily on the front, with a tougher rear (bonded in the Oryx case).

Just load them up until you find a sweet spot for accuacy, then go hunting.

In terms of lethality, Accuracy is most important, penetration into the vitals second, and wound channel is third. Since the bullets won't tear apart, and penetration will be good, focus on accuracy and don't worry about how much the bullets will mushroom across the range of impact velocity.

Hope this helps,
Jimro

Pond, James Pond · December 30, 2014, 06:46 PM

That is pretty much what I needed to know. Now I know that, given expected ranges, I want to keep it about 2300-2400 at 200m.

At the muzzle, I therefore want about 2750fps, if I can go by the Oryx data on the Norma website.

It gives me a ball-park figure for velocity when developing my loads. Even if accuracy is my main goal, I don't want to lose sight of FPS.

It does seem that my sweet-spots for accuracy, so far, have been at the lower end of the OCW powder charge scales I used: 43.8gr of N140 for the 170gr Lapua and 40.55gr of N135 for the 155gr Amax. The Max loads for those respectively are 45.5gr and 42gr. So I don't want to drop my charge weight too far.

In that respect the Nosler would have been better: way better BC compared to the Oryx.

Jimro · December 31, 2014, 06:34 AM

With a 165gr bullet you should find an accuracy node somewhere between 2650 fps and 2750fps. It may not shoot as tight as a lower velocity accuracy node, but you should be able to get MOA or tighter performance from the Oryx.

Even if you don't make it all the way to 2750 fps, I wouldn't worry about the performance of the Oryx on game even at 200 meters. Norma USA ammunition advertises the 165 Oryx at 2740 fps from the muzzle, so you should be able to duplicate that with N140, or get close enough that it doesn't matter.

Nosler advertises the 165 partition at 2800 fps from the muzzle.

Is there no source for Prvi Partizan bullets in Estonia? They make a standard cup and core bullet that would do very well for you as well. With a standard velocity cartridge like the 308 Win, there is no need to pay for premium bullets to take game. The premium bullets were manufactured to deal with the additional velocity of the "magnum velocity craze" but people assume that premium bullets are better because they are used in magnums, so they should be every bit as better when used in a standard velocity round, but that is not so.

If you can find an importer/seller, Prvi Partizan bullets B-362 is a 165gr Protected Soft Point Boat Tail bullet, the B-428 is a 174gr soft point, and the B-066 is a 180gr soft point.

Hope this helps.
Jimro

Pond, James Pond · December 31, 2014, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Is there no source for Prvi Partizan bullets in Estonia? They make a standard cup and core bullet that would do very well for you as well. With a standard velocity cartridge like the 308 Win, there is no need to pay for premium bullets to take game.

Ah, but this is Estonia. EVERYTHING is bought at a premium!!

There is a PRVI stockist, actually. I could look there. I sort of dismissed PRVI even though I know they make decent stuff, I decided to pay the extra as I want to leave as little to chance as possible.

I'm not a natural hunter. I find the idea of killing an animal somewhat hard to swallow but I want to learn and I will. However, the thought of killing that animal in a manner that causes additional suffering I find distasteful in the extreme.
I know some on TFL may scoff at my timidity/sentimentality in this respect, but that is me.

So what it means, with my shooting skill level being what it is, I decided that a bullet most likely to do its bit, at a range that isn't too great a challenge to me means the likelihood of a clean, quick kill is maximised as much as it can be so that I just have to shoot as well as I can to "complete the loop".

So, it is not so much my lacking faith in certain products, but rather my working on the faith I have in myself. In the meantime top-dollar bullets are a way of giving myself more peace of mind.

Jimro · December 31, 2014, 01:53 PM

I don't blame you, I did the same thing myself, even buying all copper Barnes X bullets for the first time I went on an elk hunt. I didn't bag an elk, but I had a lot of fun anyways.

I should have just bought a couple bags of Winchester power points or Remington Corelokts and loaded up a bunch of rounds and practiced, practiced, practiced, from field positions.

Good luck hunting.
Jimro

T. O'Heir · December 31, 2014, 02:14 PM

Sounds like you're overthinking it. A 165 is a 165. You don't need a specific load for a specific brand of bullet. Load for the weight and accuracy and quit worrying about whether or not it'll expand. It will.
"...were designed with magnum velocities in mind..." Not so, according to Norma. MV with a max load of Norma 202 powder is 2723 in .308. 2221 fps at 200 meters(I think) with 1808 (ft.-lb.). Still isn't going to come apart in a deer/elk/pig. No 165 data given for .300 Mag.
http://www.norma.cc/en/Products/Hunt...a-Oryx-165-gr/
"...EVERYTHING is bought at a premium..." Norma stuff is at a premium everywhere. It has always been expensive. Mind you, at one time, only Norma loaded a lot of cartridges. 7.62 x 54R, for example, was only available in North America, from them, 30 years ago. And pricey. No 7.62 x 39 at all.

Jimro · December 31, 2014, 08:33 PM

Norma USA lists 3200 fps with the 165 gr Oryx in the commercial 300 WIn Mag loading.

http://www.norma-usa.com/index.php/products/ammo/aph

Jimro

December 29, 2014, 05:19 PM	#1
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	165gr Norma Oryx JSP flat base bullets. FPS for expansion? What sort of velocity should I be aiming for with these bullets for them to expand well, but not come apart? Game would be boar, deer, elk and anything in between. In that order. Load wise, I'm looking, as usual, at VV powders. N135 or N140. The latter tends to develop more speed for the same barrel length. I will be loading for accuracy, but if the tightest group lacks the velocity needed for expansion, then I'll go for the velocity given that my likely hunting range is 50-200m. So far here are the loads for a 165gr bullet. N135 (based on a Speer BT) 38.3gr-44.1gr (max FPS 2700) N140 (same as above) 40.1gr-46.3gr (max FPS 2750) N135 (based on a Speer BT) 38.8gr-42.7gr (max FPS 2627) N140 (same as above) 40.6gr-46.3gr (max FPS 2680) Anyone with more exact data for these powders, (Oryx ideally, or just 165gr Jacketed flat-base bullets) please chime in. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly. Last edited by Pond, James Pond; December 30, 2014 at 04:11 AM.

December 30, 2014, 04:13 AM	#2
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	If no one has any info on the Oryx.... ... what about the Nosler Partition 165gr with N135 or N140? These have a very similar shape to the Oryx and so are probably more representative of what I need for the Oryx. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

December 30, 2014, 06:30 PM	#3
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	You cannot shoot either of those bullets fast enough in a 308 Win to tear apart in the game you mentioned. They were designed with magnum velocities in mind. Expansion in any soft point spitzer bullet drops off below 2200 fps, and is almost non existant below 1800 fps. Bullets designed to work well in that velocity range are generally large flat meplat based as used in the 30-30 Win, or like the "LeveRevolution" bullets designed specifically to open up. Above 2300 fps you should see adequate to good expansion with both the Oryx and Partition. Of the tougher bullets both are designed to mushroom relatively easily on the front, with a tougher rear (bonded in the Oryx case). Just load them up until you find a sweet spot for accuacy, then go hunting. In terms of lethality, Accuracy is most important, penetration into the vitals second, and wound channel is third. Since the bullets won't tear apart, and penetration will be good, focus on accuracy and don't worry about how much the bullets will mushroom across the range of impact velocity. Hope this helps, Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 30, 2014, 06:46 PM	#4
Pond, James Pond Senior Member Join Date: July 12, 2011 Location: Top of the Baltic stack Posts: 6,079	That is pretty much what I needed to know. Now I know that, given expected ranges, I want to keep it about 2300-2400 at 200m. At the muzzle, I therefore want about 2750fps, if I can go by the Oryx data on the Norma website. It gives me a ball-park figure for velocity when developing my loads. Even if accuracy is my main goal, I don't want to lose sight of FPS. It does seem that my sweet-spots for accuracy, so far, have been at the lower end of the OCW powder charge scales I used: 43.8gr of N140 for the 170gr Lapua and 40.55gr of N135 for the 155gr Amax. The Max loads for those respectively are 45.5gr and 42gr. So I don't want to drop my charge weight too far. In that respect the Nosler would have been better: way better BC compared to the Oryx. __________________ When the right to effective self-defence is denied, that right to self-defence which remains is essentially symbolic. Freedom: Please enjoy responsibly.

December 31, 2014, 06:34 AM	#5
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	With a 165gr bullet you should find an accuracy node somewhere between 2650 fps and 2750fps. It may not shoot as tight as a lower velocity accuracy node, but you should be able to get MOA or tighter performance from the Oryx. Even if you don't make it all the way to 2750 fps, I wouldn't worry about the performance of the Oryx on game even at 200 meters. Norma USA ammunition advertises the 165 Oryx at 2740 fps from the muzzle, so you should be able to duplicate that with N140, or get close enough that it doesn't matter. Nosler advertises the 165 partition at 2800 fps from the muzzle. Is there no source for Prvi Partizan bullets in Estonia? They make a standard cup and core bullet that would do very well for you as well. With a standard velocity cartridge like the 308 Win, there is no need to pay for premium bullets to take game. The premium bullets were manufactured to deal with the additional velocity of the "magnum velocity craze" but people assume that premium bullets are better because they are used in magnums, so they should be every bit as better when used in a standard velocity round, but that is not so. If you can find an importer/seller, Prvi Partizan bullets B-362 is a 165gr Protected Soft Point Boat Tail bullet, the B-428 is a 174gr soft point, and the B-066 is a 180gr soft point. Hope this helps. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 31, 2014, 01:53 PM	#7
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	I don't blame you, I did the same thing myself, even buying all copper Barnes X bullets for the first time I went on an elk hunt. I didn't bag an elk, but I had a lot of fun anyways. I should have just bought a couple bags of Winchester power points or Remington Corelokts and loaded up a bunch of rounds and practiced, practiced, practiced, from field positions. Good luck hunting. Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.

December 31, 2014, 02:14 PM	#8
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	Sounds like you're overthinking it. A 165 is a 165. You don't need a specific load for a specific brand of bullet. Load for the weight and accuracy and quit worrying about whether or not it'll expand. It will. "...were designed with magnum velocities in mind..." Not so, according to Norma. MV with a max load of Norma 202 powder is 2723 in .308. 2221 fps at 200 meters(I think) with 1808 (ft.-lb.). Still isn't going to come apart in a deer/elk/pig. No 165 data given for .300 Mag. http://www.norma.cc/en/Products/Hunt...a-Oryx-165-gr/ "...EVERYTHING is bought at a premium..." Norma stuff is at a premium everywhere. It has always been expensive. Mind you, at one time, only Norma loaded a lot of cartridges. 7.62 x 54R, for example, was only available in North America, from them, 30 years ago. And pricey. No 7.62 x 39 at all. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

December 31, 2014, 08:33 PM	#9
Jimro Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2006 Posts: 7,097	Norma USA lists 3200 fps with the 165 gr Oryx in the commercial 300 WIn Mag loading. http://www.norma-usa.com/index.php/products/ammo/aph Jimro __________________ Machine guns are awesome until you have to carry one.