Single Action: Jammed Beyond Repair

[jackstrawIII]

I purchased my first SA revolver yesterday. It's a Taylors Smokewagon (a version of the Uberti Cattleman).

It feels so awesome in the hand and I was pumped to shoot it. The first six rounds went off great (pretty accurate too), but on the 8th shot the gun jammed up. It's completely locked up and I can't do anything. Can't cock the hammer, can't spin the cylinder, nothing.

Anyone have any experience on how to fix this? It's brand new, and I don't think I can send it back to Taylors or Buds with 4 live rounds still in the cylinder.

Thanks.

[PolarFBear]

Did a bullet "jump" and tie up the cylinder? Can you remove the cylinder pin and ease the cylinder out of the frame?

[DaleA]

Did a bullet "jump" and tie up the cylinder?

An excellent thing to check.

Also check the other end of the cylinder and see if a primer backed out and is jamming up the cylinder.

Good luck.

[Real Gun]

I would get acquainted with a gunsmith.

[mhblaw]

...and make sure the base pin is fully seated.

[Bob Wright]

See if the bullet has exited the barrel. Try to insert a stiff card or knife blade between cylinder and barrel. If it won't go between, the bullet is bound up in the cylinder and barrel. Use a wooden dowel and mallet to drive the bullet back into the chamber.

If this is not the case, try to insert the card between the rear of the cylinder and face of the standing breech. If it won't go, the primer has likely flowed back around the firing pin opening, which may be cratered. If cratered, remove the base pin (cylinder pin), open the loading gate and roll the cylinder out of the frame. This takes some effort, incidentally.

With the cylinder out, try to cock the action, it should cock freely.

If the face of the breech is cratered, or puckered up, stone it down with a medium Arkansas oilstone.


While performing all of the above procedures, remember you still have a loaded gun in your hands, so be careful.


Bob Wright

[TomADC]

I had one a Pieta in 45 Colt turned out it had like .002 cylinder gap and after a few rounds like yours it locked up tighter then a drum, the gunsmith refaced the cylinder and all was well.
I owned this for 3 or more years until I got around to shooting it so didn't feel right trying to return it,

[FrankenMauser]

I broke one a few years ago just by cycling it a few times, and the salesmen broke the next one, just by trying to rotate the cylinder. Hammer and cylinder locked up solid.

One appeared to be caused by a bent base pin causing the cylinder to forcing cone.
The other had the hand jammed hard into the frame and cylinder.


Probably won't help you, but that's the extent of my experience with the Cattleman.

[Bob Wright]

In my previous post, I overlooked the most obvious: Check to see if a bullet is protruding from the cylinder enough to prevent rotation. Could happen if a bullet were "pulled" by recoil.


Whatever the reason, when determined, please advise us.

Bob Wright

[jackstrawIII]

I took your advice regarding checking whether the bullet had exited the gun. I thought I remembered ringing the steel target, but I wasn't sure.

I stuck an unsharpened pencil down the barrel and tapped with a hammer. It stuck on something right around the forcing cone, then popped through 1/4" into the case. Long story short, this allowed me to move the cylinder and eventually get the cylinder out.

The attached pic shows the case that was left in the gun. Hopefully you can see in the pic, it looks as if a portion of the bullet jacket sheared off and stayed in the case (jamming the gun) while most of the bullet exited the gun as normal.

Does this mean that the timing is off? Would that cause part of the jacket to shear off this way and stay in the case? Must admit I've never seen anything like this before.

[mehavey]

What/whose ammunition were you using?

[Chainsaw.]

Wow! Well thats a new one! Might be best to check the timing on that thing.

[45 Dragoon]

Well, my El Patron Comp has been quite a fine, accurate revolver. This Cattleman based S.A. is supposed to be a "factory tuned" version but, needed some help so . . . . I helped it!! These revolvers are hugely mass produced and the "tuned " ones are so called because they have "after market" springs in them. The reason they are affordable is the "mass" aspect and installing wire springs is easy (but I don't like wires!!)
Anyway, I've not had any problems at all and just because a revolver makes it out the factory door, doesn't mean it shouldn't be gone through (especially if it's from Italy!!)! Even a Colt S.A.A. should be gone through (at the very least, inspected, just so that you know!)
Today's "gunsmiths" are more "parts changers" than "parts fitters". S.A.s are from a different era and one needs to be a little more knowledgeable about how the action works.
I'm just saying, give the Italian offerings a fair shot and not throw in the towel, especially if you don't even know what may be wrong. Any of them can be made to feel unbelievable!!
The best part is, they're inexpensive enough to actually work on them or have them worked on.
For instance, mine has a hammer draw of 3 lbs.(rather than 6,7 or 8)! A crisp trigger pull of 2.5 lbs.! Cycles like a dream, gets fanned daily (at least 50 times just as an endurance test for me!)
The latest upgrade was to change all the flat springs to coils (as in a Ruger 3 screw)! Yap, the handspring is a frame mounted coil and " pushrod " (and is of my own design), the bolt spring is a torsion spring and the trigger return spring is by a trigger guard mounted spring and plunger behind the trigger. The only flat left is the mainspring but reduced to give a 3 lb. hammer draw, it will be around a loooooooooooong time!! This was done just for the proven reliability aspect that the S.A. Ruger has a history of. After all, my El Patron is my carry gun and one of my home defense weapons.

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks

Happy Cattleman/ El Patron owner!!

[FrankenMauser]

Interesting.

...Definitely wanting to know what you were shooting.

[jackstrawIII]

Was using Federal 38 special ammunition.

Is it safe to keep shooting this thing, or should I assume that it will continue to have problems? I really don't want to pump repair money into a new gun?

[Salmoneye]

That looks like bullet failure to me...

There is far more than just a sliver of the copper cup left in that case...

My guesstimation is that Fed is using cheap bullets that are lead core swaged into an open based copper cup, and that there is no bonding of the soft lead to copper...

The copper cup then became one with the brass case, and when the round was fired, the lead part of the bullet exited the gun, but the copper stayed stuck to the brass...

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it...

More pics of what's inside the case would help...

I'd cycle by hand a few dozen times and watch the cylinder lineup...

Then if all looks well, I'd try a different manufacturer light load and go from there...

[UncleEd]

Jackstraw,

Whatever you do, get out of the habit of loading six; make it five as is the usual practice. If you don't know the procedure, ask a six gunner used to SA revolvers.

But take it to a gunsmith who can check cylinder alignment, the barrel, the hand, cylinder timing, etc. etc.

[jackstrawIII]

Salmoneye, I think you might be right. The entire jacket remained in the case. You see the lip of copper where the bottom of the seated bullet would be? That lip goes around the eitire case in a nice complete circle.

It's odd that the bullet would separate like that though. Never had an issue with this ammo before. Also, the fact that the copper jacket is smushed on just one side of the case mouth still leads me to think that maybe the alignment of the cylinder is off? And that's what strained the bullet and caused the failure?

I'll try to take another picture of the case tonight.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Whatever you do, get out of the habit of loading six; make it five as is the usual practice. If you don't know the procedure, ask a six gunner used to SA revolvers.

I noticed that too. If you load that puppy up with six rounds and drop it on its hammer, it will likely discharge. Only load five in a single action revolver with the traditional Colt type action. Load one, skip one, load four more. Cock the hammer and then lower it on an empty chamber.

[Ben_Snow]

Uncle Ed wrote:

Whatever you do, get out of the habit of loading six; make it five as is the usual practice. If you don't know the procedure, ask a six gunner used to SA revolvers.

That's why I like the transfer bar in my SA Ruger

[Jim Watson]

You were a bit lucky.
A guy here managed to blow the core out of a bullet and leave the jacket in the barrel. The core actually hit the target so he shot again and bulged his barrel.

[Bob Wright]

That was a problem with the old half jacket bullets from years passed. If the load was light, or even a squib, the lead shot out of the jacket.

As the bullet entered the rifling, the jacket sort of came to a sudden stop, while the lead continued on. This with the old half jacket buttlets sold by Speer and Lakeville Arms, as I recall.

With you gun empty, cock the hammer and check for complete cylinder rotation. If it does not lock into place, you need some work. If it does lock, try running a rod down the muzzle to see if the chamber aligns with the barrel. Any questions, hie to your gunsmith.


Bob Wright

[Master Blaster]

Give Federal a call and share your experience with them they will want to know the lot number off the end of the box. It looks like and ammo issue to me as that is not normal for part of a jacket to stay in the case. I am not sure how the gun could have caused the issue.

[Oliver Sudden]

Your jacket failure doesn't indicate a pistol problem. Best way around having a reacurrance is to shoot lead bullets as there's no parts to be left behind.

[Bob Wright]

JackstrawIII,

That jacket looks suspicious to me. There should be no hole in the jacket at the base. If that were there when fired, obviously the pressure blew through the bullet base and sent the lead core downrange.

Get in touch with Federal Cartridge Co. explain the circumstances and show that photo. They may want you to sent them the case as shown.

And document all correspondence.

Bob Wright